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De Lamballe painting with nipple showing
http://forum.marie-antoinette.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2385
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Author:  Ludy [ Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: De Lamballe painting with nipple showing

I cannot say for certain but I'd venture to make the assumption that it would be inaccurate to see any kind of eroticism in that painting. Showing a lot of cleavage was fashionable during the XVI/XVII century, but at the end of the XVIII century, people growing more prudish, this would have been frowned upon. More likely than not, this picture pertains to the "Rousseauiste" movement : breastfeeding had grown hugely popular amongst high society women : Louis Joseph's nanny, for instance, did not flinch from breastfeeding him in public. To my mind, this might be a hint at that fashion, in spite of the fact that Madame de Lamballe certainly never breastfed: she remained childless.

Author:  Lilly [ Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: De Lamballe painting with nipple showing

The painting was done by Joseph Duplessis (1725-1802). I'm a little surprised to see her nipple showing - I had the impression the Princess was very modest and other than the Queen don't know her to be sexually linked with anyone (other than her deceased husband). Doubtful she'd pose with the idea of being erotic...
I am curious as to what this was all about.

Author:  baron de batz [ Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: De Lamballe painting with nipple showing

18th century paintings often show a pert pink nipple peeking out....look at Greuze for example, Fragonard etc. I think it was seen as aesthetic, offsetting the whiteness of the breast and highlighting this whiteness which was a sign of beautiful skin. And it was a sign of ultimate feminiity. Although not without eroticism, we cannot judge this with our our 21st century eyes: we live in the porno age but if girls dressed as they did in the 18th century with ample cleavage showing it would be seen as provocative. Our values are all upside down.

Author:  Marija Vera [ Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: De Lamballe painting with nipple showing

Yes, these things one has to observe from the perspective of the period. I remember reading about those so popular 18th century themes in art of some semi erotic situations, for example of a man stumbling upon a woman dressing, doing something provocative etc etc. Just Boilly did so many of such images, they are so amusing and I love them. The point is that such situation would be so easy to happen in the 18th century where people didn't have such privacy. So you could easily see someone making love in some dark corner, stumble upon someone undressing etc, so these images were not just about some erotic fantasy but something that really happened, a lot! So I also think that wearing such a low cleavage carried a big risk of it showing more than you would want, and that such situation, when you could see more than you should, was seen as something particularly beautiful, feminine and therefore praised - as the image of ultimately beautiful and desirable woman. Now why Lamballe went for that fashion... Vanity?

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Author:  baron de batz [ Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: De Lamballe painting with nipple showing

I personally am all for it! :)

Author:  Ludy [ Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: De Lamballe painting with nipple showing

baron de batz wrote:
I personally am all for it! :)



And I am for polyandry ! HA HA HA !

Author:  baron de batz [ Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: De Lamballe painting with nipple showing

Who's she?

:)

Author:  Ludy [ Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: De Lamballe painting with nipple showing

You may know her better than you think !

Author:  baron de batz [ Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: De Lamballe painting with nipple showing

:lol:

Who? Polly?

Never met any Polly's! :)

Author:  Marija Vera [ Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: De Lamballe painting with nipple showing

!?!?!?!

If it is about me I am for love + work, in the animal rescue group. Keep it all in the family.... :lol:

After all I bathe the dogs wearing just the jeans and a bra... To give it a bit 18th century touch... :biggrin: (or not to ruin my shirt)

Author:  Ludy [ Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: De Lamballe painting with nipple showing

No your post was interesting. About promiscuity and bad hygiene, yes, though the hygiene might have been a bit better than what we think usually (it had at least improved since the XVII century). I remember reading that upon his return to France after the revolution, Chateaubriand wrote that he had trouble taking the French way of life -promiscuity small flats, poor living conditions, dirt ... so apparently it was far worse than in other countries, such as England.

Some treaties about hygiene and good behaviour in society dealt with issues such as is it appropriate or not to fart/belch in public (I am serious). So the attitude towards bodily functions seemed to be very blunt in fact.


Slightly off topic, I have the impression however that we tend to stretch the truth about the liberal attitude towards sex (sex, not intimacy) in the XVIII century. When I read Rousseau's Confession, where he writes in detail about his sex life, which was not exactly hectic or glorious. I got the impression that, on the contrary, it was rather difficult for a young man to be initiated and have mistresses other than prostitutes.

The focus is on a scanty group of high society womanizers such as the Duc de Richelieu, or simply Casanova. But I am sure that in fact most people had by far fewer relationships than we have now. Even if you count the number of mistresses Louis XV did have, you get disappointed. There were barely 10 of them in the parc aux cerfs.

Author:  Ludy [ Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: De Lamballe painting with nipple showing

And Baron de Batz, stop putting your apostrophes everywhere, even though that is SO British.

Do you know the joke about the panda ?

Author:  Marija Vera [ Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: De Lamballe painting with nipple showing

You always had some new book coming about the polite behaviour so I remember reading about a man loudly complaining how it was rude to spit in front of the gentlemen and it hadn't been before.

As for sex, it seems everything was about it in the 18th century but you may as well be right. Catharine the Great, for example, she was being slandered for her affairs and being highly promiscuous and it all comes to around 11 , 12 partners in her life time. I know girls who reached that number early in life...

Author:  Ludy [ Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: De Lamballe painting with nipple showing

Marija Vera wrote:


As for sex, it seems everything was about it in the 18th century but you may as well be right. Catharine the Great, for example, she was being slandered for her affairs and being highly promiscuous and it all comes to around 11 , 12 partners in her life time. I know girls who reached that number early in life...


Exactly ! I read 21 for Catherine the Great, maybe I have switched the two numbers ! Now I am even more disappointed.

Anyway, I would put down a lot of what was written about sexuality down to social showing off. Let us not forget that they were but men, who streched the truth about their adventures because they wanted to abide by a given social model -the way Valmont does. And even today, this is simply a masculine way to talk about sexuality : been there, done that.

In fact Rousseau's confessions were deemed scandalous and were scoffed at, partly because he spoke about sex in a way nobody would have dared at that time -and in general presents himself in a self-depreciating way. Basically, he wrote extensively about his weaknesses, failures with women, the way he indulged in solitary pleasures and exhibitionnism. So a lot of things about sexuality were in fact very frowned upon in society, contrary to what we may think.

Author:  Marija Vera [ Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: De Lamballe painting with nipple showing

Yes, just 11 or 12 for sure including her 2 husbands. But she had an interesting love life, with some of her lovers being really exceptional in some ways so it was all worth it! I so much admire this woman.

As for Rousseau, I remember reading somewhere that he wrote how he secretly enjoyed being beaten by his gouvernante, enjoyed sexually. Have no idea whether it is true but would love to read his confessions. He seems a bit melancholic and very brutally honest about himself. I would enjoy reading it no doubt.

I would love to hear this joke about Panda! :lol:

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