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The Comte de Tilly
http://forum.marie-antoinette.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1717
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Author:  cherecoeur [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  The Comte de Tilly

Dear Reader: Has anyone come across this name in their readings containing anecdotes about Marie-Antoinette's nature. I believe that benevolence and charity were a sort of fashion at the time, but, whether prompted by fashion or a natural sweetness, the queen exhibited these traits. Somewhere, I came across the name of the Comte de Tilly as a recipient of this sweet, forgiving nature involving some gaff in etiquette he committed at a gathering, and the queen intervened to forgive him. I do recall that at Mme de Stael's presentation at court in 1786, she fell as she was backing away from the King and Queen, tripping on her dress. In that incident, the queen quickly put everyone at ease and the young daughter of Mr Necker was spared much embarassment.

Author:  baron de batz [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Comte de Tilly

The Comte de Tilly does indeed describe the Queen....one of the things he says is that, whereas for other ladies of the court one would wish to pull up a chair for them to sit on, for MA one always feels the wish to pull up a throne.... such was her innate majesty.

Author:  cherecoeur [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Comte de Tilly

A charming, and telling anecdote from a time Talleyrand said, in effect, that not to have lived then was not to have lived.

Author:  Elle [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Comte de Tilly

I love that expession....and I feel it is true. "that not to have lived then was not to have lived."

Author:  baron de batz [ Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Comte de Tilly

Yes its' difficult to compare the mediocrity of modern life with the care that was taken over every element of life in the 18th century. Most people now, wherever they are, look and dress the same. I know, I travel a lot. Sometimes one person dressed with the kind of care they took in that 18th century would stand out like a gold nugget amongst pebbles.....and have you noticed? No colour anymore, colour is banned. And the same goes for so many elements of life, be it music, art, literature....to live happy you have to live alternatively and refuse the outside influence of a society in ultimate and painstakingly slow decline. Such as TV....and reality shows.

Author:  cherecoeur [ Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Comte de Tilly

The Baron de Batz has said a lot in a very little space, and I totally agree. I will never forget a comment made by a co-worker years ago who was a fashion-conscious young man, and we used to talk about Marie-Antoinette, that the people we worked with and throughout the building were such slobs that when someone beautifully groomed and well dressed appeared on the scene that literally your "jaw would drop."

Author:  jimcheval [ Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Comte de Tilly

cherecoeur wrote:
A charming, and telling anecdote from a time Talleyrand said, in effect, that not to have lived then was not to have lived.

Presuming of course one was part of the very small favored minority (which, bear in mind, most of us would not have been).

As far as how people dress, I'd think that depends today on which country. I've rarely seen an Italian of any class badly dressed. :)

Author:  Elle [ Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Comte de Tilly

Sad, very sad but true. I would have only loved to have been among the privileged in those times. But to have been among them...Now that is what real living, fun and my idea of a good life is all about....I do always tend,(and I don't mean to) but live my life in a kind of an "alternative mode."

Author:  cherecoeur [ Sat Oct 31, 2009 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Comte de Tilly

From jimcheval:
"Presuming of course one was part of the very small favored minority (which, bear in mind, most of us would not have been)."

I am so very aware of this, not painfully, but just aware. I expect the most I could have hoped for was a job in some bureau stamping documents with someone else's seal by candlelight and with my bad eyes. I am afraid that I would in reality hated the privileged had I lived then and would have been covered in mud from their carriages speeding through the streets on the way to the opéra. Another likely job would have been as the crank-boy in the basement kitchens responsible for hoisting dumbwaiters to the floors above where the action was, checking my mail for the invitation that never arrived.

Author:  Rosalie [ Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Comte de Tilly

jimcheval wrote:
As far as how people dress, I'd think that depends today on which country. I've rarely seen an Italian of any class badly dressed. :)


Thank you! :mrgreen:

But I agree with the baron and cherecoeur, about the fact that people have lost a sense of beauty. It's true, of course, we should'nt idealize the 18th century, we should be aware there were deep social inequalities. But, thinking back about that time, one is usually attracted by the beautiful and noble aspects of it, and realizes how much we lost.
Especially what the baron said about colour touched me, it's something I feel. I personally love wearing colourful thing, and there are years when you simply can't find them because fashion goes in another direction (it's not the case of the last couple of year, luckily! I love the purple which is now everywhere :rainbow: ). And something I feel more and more, and which I usually find difficult to explain to other people, is that this happens also about personal beauty. I mean, when I see a portrait of a beautiful 18th century woman, she appears really beautiful to me, while most of the beauties that are now fashionable seem all like each other, all quite the same...tall, with a slim and sporty body, and features that don't really communicate anything special...I don't know if it's just an impression of mine, but I find it quite sad, like people cannot appreciate real beauty anymore.
Maybe I just have too high a concept of beauty..I don't know. :)

Author:  baron de batz [ Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Comte de Tilly

And where's the beauty of a haunting look or a regard? How can a face without learning, humility, recognition of life's real truth look really beautiful? You look at the "beautiful" models of today, the ones Rosalie describes, and you see self love. In those days there was something in the faces to look at, and death never looks far away.....at least palpitating life through the consciousness of mortality. Now those top model faces express the void.

Author:  Hellou_Librorum [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Comte de Tilly

My view is less poetic than Baron's view and more cynical

I think it is the following

1. An enormous amount of makeup
2. Photoshop

Real beauty has personality, intelligence, soul and quirks. That is just my opnion.

Author:  baron de batz [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Comte de Tilly

Well I share the second part completely.

Author:  cherecoeur [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Comte de Tilly

I know we are leaving the count behind here, but I am delighted with the conversation that has developed. The worn-out saying that we each eye beauty differently is still very true, and I must agree that "quirkiness" is a strong ingredient; it makes the model stand out from her tribe of look-alikes. I guess I may be strange, but I miss "heroin chic". It became politically incorrect I guess, but the magazines that included black-and white photos of zonked-out waifs dressed in ($$$$) clothing and slumped in the corner of some burned-out tenement were art.

Author:  jimcheval [ Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Comte de Tilly

cherecoeur wrote:
t I miss "heroin chic". It became politically incorrect

I don't know that 'politically incorrect' is quite the right term for images that encouraged self-damage and drug abuse.

Of course, it can be beautiful. Joel Peter Witkin's photographs, which use actual bits of corpses, can also be beautiful. But, as Baudelaire's love poem centered around a rotting corpse shows us, beauty can take many unsavory forms.

A young person smoking or shooting heroin because they think it makes them cool is somewhat less edifying to see.

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