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 Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen 

Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen were lovers
Yes. 47%  47%  [ 36 ]
No. 37%  37%  [ 28 ]
I really don't know! 16%  16%  [ 12 ]
Total votes : 76

 Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen 
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I too would like to know :wink:

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Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:54 pm
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I've often wondered about this...

I think perhaps the relationship was strictly one of chaste, courtly love, but I don't think it impossible that something physical may have occurred one of the last nights at the Tuileries. I believe they loved each other very much, in a way that was different from the affection and devotion Antoinette had for the King.

<hugs>

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Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:00 pm
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Oh of course, I actually read in the biography of the last queen of france by Evelyn Lever. :wink:


If you want I would type it up for you, would you like me to do it Pimprenelle? :)


Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:25 am
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Yes, do, please, Louis-Antoinette...

Athlynne, some people believe that Antoinette and Fersen once were lovers, but they don't agree on when this intercourse would have happened !

No one says this could happen before the hero's departure to America. Following Fraser, this could be in the years 83, 84 or 85, and, afterwards, this transformed into a beautiful friendship. However the writer agrees that it would be rather delicate for, in those years, the queen was pregnant.

Some people dream about this wonderful feast the queen organized for Gustavus III, and that Fersen attended. Well... How could she run into the bushes with such a crowd around ? And her huge court dress ?

Later, the same problems remain : the queen was never alone, but surrounded by her suite, or by her circle. And we find no tracks of any physical liaison in Besenval's souvenirs, nor in Campan's. No mention in Mercy's reports either...

Let's jump to this famous last visit in 1792. Fersen met the queen in the Tuileries. Some people believe this could be their one and only romantic night. Well... with those guards watching them ? And her door never closed ?

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Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:06 am
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At the Tuileries the guards were insructed to check on the queen every two hours to make certain she was still in her bed. Also, many of the servants at the Tuileries were paid to spy on her every move for the new revolutionary government. They were trying to build a case against her even then.

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Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:09 pm
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Pimprenelle, I am dreadfully sorry I have not stated my source of Fersen statement a bout marie yet!
I just have been so busy these last couple of days with working and studying, I would get to it by tommorow! I promise! :D


Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:45 pm
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I voted I don't know cause I truly never will!
But I honestly think it never happened

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Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:17 pm
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I think, that we can discuss this forever without having an evidence. Personally I am not offended from either answers. If Marie Antoinette stayed faithful in her marriage with the king, that is good and the very purpose of being married to someone, but if she was having a romantic/erotic relationship with the count, then I am fine with that also. I would never abandon a friend or a relative founding out they have had an affair while married. Perhaps I would seriously talk to them and try to understand possible reasons, but I would love and forgive for the persons I care much. After all, nobody is perfect in this world, no matter how much we want that to be. And it is important to research the historic events neutrally.


Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:39 pm
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That is pretty much how I view it, Aurora. There are many ladies in history whom I admire who had extramarital affairs, such as Catherine the Great and Josephine. While I would not praise the affair, I certainly understand the wayward human heart. To me, there just is not enough evidence in Marie-Antoinette's case of an affair with Fersen.

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Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:33 pm
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I agree with you, Therese. Of course, I would not be offended should Antoinette have an affair with Fersen. In the beginning, I even was sure she did...

Then, having read and searched a bit more, I had doubts, and, now, I think that today people romanticize events too much ! Details they show as proven, are not, after all.

There is no evidence at all, some sentences often quoted may be misunderstood and are used out of context. And there are many facts that tend to show the contrary, such as court representation and habits.

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Last edited by Pimprenelle on Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:21 am
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I can't give any specific opinion about the nature of their relationship, but I admit I have not all the knowledge you have Therese and Pimprenelle. From the scientific point there has to be accepted two-way evidences to confirm anything and this can be extremely difficult to obtain in this case.
My point is, does it really matter so much that this particular relationship has been so much discussed in all those years? It was only great that Marie Antoinette was having one moore long-standing friend during the horrible years. I am certainly not one of those who dream about a grand swedish knight, if I need romance I am reading La Dame aux camélias...and not imagine fairy-tales about Marie Antoinette, my hero.


Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:46 am
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That's exactly how I feel, dear Aurora ! History and romances are different stuffs ! But the public need romance, that's why these "ferseneries" are so successful. And that's also part of Marie-Antoinette's celebrity, alas... the unfortunate queen, so bad married, but who, at least, knew the joys and pains of a so tragically beautiful love (sob and violines, here)...

I have nothing against the count himself, I guess he must be an interesting man, being among Antoinette's friends. The same as for madame de Polignac. Marie-Antoinette was too sensitive and clever a woman to rely on unfaithful people.

That's why I don't believe in this wonderful love story, for Fersen had lovers in each town he visited. Do you still call this a wonderful love story ? I don't ! And Marie-Antoinette appears rather ridiculous, like another Penelopè always waiting for her Odusseus' (Ulysse) return.

The only solution that remains, for me, being psychologically suitable, is to admit that Fersen and Antoinette were friends. Some kind of childish infatuation, maybe... but nothing more, for he could allow himself so many mistresses. In this view, I'd even add that sex is no longer relevant...

Still I don't think they made love. The more I read about Versailles court habits, and about costumes, the more I tend to find this really impossible. Marie-Antoinette was never alone. We could not even imagine her day to day life... She was surrounded by ladies. At night, the king may enter her room whenever her wanted. How could she have another man in such conditions ?

However, ok, let's portray this encounter... what could this be, actually ? Nothing more than a quick fuck between two trees of the garden. Would this resemble proud Marie-Antoinette, the Queen ? And respectful Fersen ?

Finally, dear Aurora, to get back to this love legend people need so much to admire their heroes, I agree with you. Marie-Antoinette deserves admiration for her own acts and behaviour. Marie-Antoinette, my heroine, my goddess, needs no sigisbeo to appear and shine with all her splendour...

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Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:39 am
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Mais, oui, Aurora! I will read "La Dame aux Camellias" if I want tragic romance. Or read Napoleon's very earthy, sensual letters to Josephine, of which there is no doubt that he wrote them to her. Or listen to the "Love/Death" from Wagner's "Tristan und Isolde." I just do not see the point of stretching and twisting facts to make them fit into a romantic story about poor Marie-Antoinette, who probably never slept with anyone but her husband.

Yes, Pim, the king would show up unannounced in Antoinette's rooms - there was a back passage that linked her rooms directly with his. He would also show up at Petit Trianon while out riding, since the queen and Gabrielle were usually there with his children.

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Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:03 pm
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Yes, and sometimes it is possible to love and honour a person very deeply, even when there has never been or will be a physical connection. It is rare, I admit, among people, but it could be something like that with the Queen and the Count. Fersen had his physical needs well satisfied with other women, while he couldn't do that with Marie Antoinette. And dear Antoinette with her tender heart could need a fellow foreigner in France in a form of an interesting, educated handsome man.


Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:22 pm
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Yes, Aurora, if there was anything between them, that is exactly what I think it was, which would explain why he had to have so many other women.

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Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:35 pm
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