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 Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen 

Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen were lovers
Yes. 46%  46%  [ 36 ]
No. 38%  38%  [ 30 ]
I really don't know! 15%  15%  [ 12 ]
Total votes : 78

 Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen 
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Being less romantic than you are, girls, I would talk about infatuation rather than about platonic love. Consummated or not, what would be the difference, after all ? And Antoinette would still be this ridiculous Penelope waiting for her unfaithful man !

She played with Fersen, gently, as she played with other courtiers, for she was "playful as a pussicat". Later, she turned to him intensely, for she was in distress and needed help. Fersen then tried to rescue French royals, sent by his king Gustavus III.

She even sent a ring to him "lâche qui les abandonne" (coward the one who let them down). It was on the political ground that she needed Fersen, then !

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Last edited by Pimprenelle on Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:51 pm
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Marie even send a ring with a strong of her hair in it to Princesse Lamballe, and Lamballe kept it until she died.

Oh by the way. Fersen actually wrote a letter to his sister stating he only wished to marry one person and that was Marie.


Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:11 pm
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Pimprenelle wrote:
Being less romantic than you are, girls, I would talk about infatuation rather than about platonic love. Consummated or not, what would be the difference, after all ? And Antoinette would still be this ridiculous Penelope waiting for her unfaithful man !

She played with Fersen, gently, as she played with other courtiers, for she was "playful as a pussicat". Later, she turned to him intensely, for she was in distress and needed help. Fersen then tried to rescue French royals, sent by his king Gustavus III.

She even send a ring to him "lâche qui les abandonne" (coward the one who let them down). It was on the political ground that she needed Fersen, then !


Yes, dear Pim, you make excellent points. I personally think whether a relationship was physically consummated or not does make a big difference, especially to the people involved. But maybe that is just me.... Anyway, I agree with you that on the queen's part, he was only a friend among many, and one whom she relied on in crisis because of his connections.

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Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:17 pm
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So nice that somebody calls me romantic, Pimprenelle, I thought I am too cynical these days..seriously, I must agree with Therese, it makes a difference if the sex is involved or not. But referring to my earlier posts I don't really know what happened then and I don't want to focus on that relationship.


Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:41 pm
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Yes, dear Aurora, and I am sure others will agree, there are other relationships she had that are more interesting.

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Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:07 pm
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Quote:
Oh by the way. Fersen actually wrote a letter to his sister stating he only wished to marry one person and that was Marie.


No, dear. I already refered to this famous letter (see supra). Fersen indeed explained to his sister that he did not want to marry, "for marriage is anti-natural (contrenature)". As he cannot "be to the person" he wants to, he does not want to "be to anybody".

That's actually all the count said. Historians think this person is Marie-Antoinette. Well... it could be anybody, after all... any girl, any woman, even a man...

Dear Therese and Aurora, I'll shortly explain what I meant : in all these "ferseneries" some biographers enjoy so much, it's not the hypothesis that Antoinette could have sex with Fersen that annoys me. It's the image of our queen they give as a consequence.

She could use him, I have no problem with that. But I don't agree with these romantic historians portraying her as a sailor wife, always waiting, always passive and submitted. In my view, Marie-Antoinette had many other fascinating things to do than to bent her head before Fersen !

So, I especially have problems with writers as madame Lever, who tells that all Antoinette's life was built around Fersen. Even Trianon becomes under Lever's quill a temple to this love ! This, in my opinion, is less accurate than any other theory !

That's in this perspective that sex does not matter that much, does it ?!

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Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:48 am
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OK, I see what you are saying, Pim. I agree that the queen had a rich, full life and was too busy with so many other things that she would not have been waiting like a Penelope for Fersen to show up!

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Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:15 pm
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I agree, I can never see Marie Antoinette as Penelope! Is that really the image given by these special biographies in favor of the relationship? I mean, I have read Lever, Herman Lindqvist: Fersen biography, Farr and so on, Söderhjelm. But perhaps I am so convinced to see La Reine as independent and wonderful I cannot notice these suggestions of her being a pale, anemic, passive XIXth century Lily, just waiting in her little rustic grotte for the real masculine air to be alive...(slow piano Nocturne here, Chopin, following a quiet violin solo)


Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:37 pm
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:lol: :lol: :lol: Just what I meant, dears ! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:24 pm
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I think that marie Antoinette and Axel were lovers, but I think that they didn't had sex! But we wil never know the true story of it!!!!

Robert


Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:18 pm
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I voted "no" (si si Pimprenelle :D ), and that restores balance!
I think that their relation was closer to a very great affinity, rather than of love.
But I think that Fersen wanted really to help and to save Marie-Antoinette, and that he was honest, exept in 1792 in the Tuileries when he lied on his displacements :D

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Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:42 pm
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Oh, Louis-Charles, Pimprenelle will be quite pleased with you!! :P

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Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:56 pm
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Not exactly Therese, because I'm less severe than Pimprenelle with Fersen :D
We already have debated on Fersen Pimprenelle and me :D
I forgive him more errors because he really brought happiness to Marie-Antoinette.
N'est-ce pas pimprennelle :wink:

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Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:03 pm
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OK, I understand...I will avoid the crossfire in this case! :lol: :wink:

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Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:15 pm
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Oh the crossfire will be impossible reassure you :P , because we agree a major part of time, and it is very interesting to exchange ideas I like that :wink:

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Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:21 pm
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