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 Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen 

Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen were lovers
Yes. 46%  46%  [ 36 ]
No. 38%  38%  [ 30 ]
I really don't know! 15%  15%  [ 12 ]
Total votes : 78

 Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen 
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
I believe the originals are lost. According to this article http://teaattrianon.blogspot.com/2007/0 ... art-2.html:

Quote:
When the letters of the queen and Count Fersen were published by his great nephew Baron de Klinckostrom in the late nineteenth century, they proved the nature of the queen and Fersen’s relationship to be principally a diplomatic one. According to Nesta Webster in Louis XVI and Marie-Antoinette during the Revolution the letters were “written in a very difficult cipher to which a particular edition of Paul and Virginie provided the key….In certain of the letters, mainly those from the queen to Fersen, passages have been erased and are indicated by rows of dots in the printed text.” The Baron himself wrote that “the Fersen family has retained the greatest veneration for those holy and august martyrs, Louis XVI and Marie-Antoinette, and there is nothing among the papers remaining from the Comte de Fersen’s which can cast a shadow on the conduct of the Queen.” (see Webster) The erasures of Fersen were most likely sensitive diplomatic issues, not declarations of love, as some romantics have claimed. They concealed allusions to the queen’s disagreements with her brothers-in-law Artois and Provence, or references to the Duc d’Orleans and other revolutionaries, or even mentions of spies or persons whose families would have been compromised had the letters fallen into the wrong hands. The original letters are lost; some say the Baron burned them in order to keep the cipher from being imitated and used for forgeries; others say he burned them to keep people from discovering proof of a love affair, but there was no love affair to be found, by his own admission.

In 1907 a certain Monsieur Lucien Maury published in Revue Bleue what he claimed to be a fragment of a love letter of the queen to Fersen, which includes the words: “Farewell, the most loved and loving of men. I embrace you with my whole heart….” The letter had no signature, was not in the queen’s handwriting, only in the cipher she used, jotted down by Fersen in cipher. There is no proof it was from the queen but could have been from one of the many ladies with whom Fersen dallied over the years.

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Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:45 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
Therese wrote:
I believe the originals are lost. According to this article http://teaattrianon.blogspot.com/2007/0 ... art-2.html:

Quote:
When the letters of the queen and Count Fersen were published by his great nephew Baron de Klinckostrom in the late nineteenth century, they proved the nature of the queen and Fersen’s relationship to be principally a diplomatic one. According to Nesta Webster in Louis XVI and Marie-Antoinette during the Revolution the letters were “written in a very difficult cipher to which a particular edition of Paul and Virginie provided the key….In certain of the letters, mainly those from the queen to Fersen, passages have been erased and are indicated by rows of dots in the printed text.” The Baron himself wrote that “the Fersen family has retained the greatest veneration for those holy and august martyrs, Louis XVI and Marie-Antoinette, and there is nothing among the papers remaining from the Comte de Fersen’s which can cast a shadow on the conduct of the Queen.” (see Webster) The erasures of Fersen were most likely sensitive diplomatic issues, not declarations of love, as some romantics have claimed. They concealed allusions to the queen’s disagreements with her brothers-in-law Artois and Provence, or references to the Duc d’Orleans and other revolutionaries, or even mentions of spies or persons whose families would have been compromised had the letters fallen into the wrong hands. The original letters are lost; some say the Baron burned them in order to keep the cipher from being imitated and used for forgeries; others say he burned them to keep people from discovering proof of a love affair, but there was no love affair to be found, by his own admission.

In 1907 a certain Monsieur Lucien Maury published in Revue Bleue what he claimed to be a fragment of a love letter of the queen to Fersen, which includes the words: “Farewell, the most loved and loving of men. I embrace you with my whole heart….” The letter had no signature, was not in the queen’s handwriting, only in the cipher she used, jotted down by Fersen in cipher. There is no proof it was from the queen but could have been from one of the many ladies with whom Fersen dallied over the years.

Thanks Therese! This is so interesting. You made my day!
/ Thorleif Nilsson


Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:57 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
You are welcome!

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Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:59 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
This is interesting, too http://teaattrianon.blogspot.com/2007/0 ... art-3.html:

Quote:
The psychology of Count Fersen in his later years must also be taken into account. He was proud of his daring and initiative which had intially delivered Louis XVI, Marie-Antoinette and their family from the Tuileries in June, 1791. However, the failure of the royal family to escape to Montmedy he blamed on the fact that he had not accompanied them after they left Paris; he was haunted by the night of Varennes for the rest of his life. Indeed, he was murdered by a mob in Stockholm about twenty years later on the exact anniversary of the royal family’s escape, June 20. He saw his failure as not only costing the lives of his dear friends, but also for destroying what would have been the glory of his career, to have been the one responsible for the rescue of the French royal family. Webster and Kermina maintain that the count seemed to be always looking for signs that the queen had loved him. He pinned in his diary a scrap of a letter that she had written to someone else, that was passed on to him after her death by Madame de Korff, the Russian lady whose passport Madame de Tourzel had used in the foiled escape. The scrap contained the words: Adieu, mon coeur est tout à vous, “Farewell, my heart is all yours.” The queen expressed herself in such a gushing style to all of her friends and family and although the words were in her handwriting there is no indication to whom it was written. There is evidence, however, that Fersen transcribed known letters of the queen into his journal, and at least in one case altering the original text to make it more personal. He claimed that the queen had once used his seal with the motto: Tutto a te mi guida. “Everything leads me to thee.” Webster claims that she had also used the seal of the monarchist Quintin Crauford in her correspondence – using other people’s seals was a subterfuge employed in sensitive diplomatic correspondence, but Fersen thought the words were meant as a message for himself. As Webster says: "Everything could certainly not be guiding her to Fersen when she was imprisoned in the Temple and had just refused Jarjayes' plan of escape, saying she could have no happiness apart from her children and therefore she abandoned the idea without even feeling any regret."

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Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:16 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
Thanks once again, Therese!
/Thorleif Nilsson


Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:21 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
De rien.

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Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:33 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
I'm afraid that authentic historical conclusions require more than one source, dear. Please supply some supporting information to your argument. Lovely avatar, by the way. :angel1:

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Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:42 am
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
Sorry, I am more impressed by Webster, Delorme, and Bertiere, who also analyze it precisely. The problem with Zweig is that he was a disciple of Freud, who analyzed every aspect of life in terms of sexual urges. I take what he says with a grain of salt.

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Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:52 am
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
So very true, dear Therese! One can not believe in something simply because it is "presented well". Why, one could argue beautifully that the sky is green and you may believe me! :lol:

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Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:15 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
From a post by Pimprenelle:
Quote:
This opinion Marie Antoinette once had Fersen for lover actually comes from a book written by Alma Söderjhelm. All the authors that believe there once was a love affair rely on this book and always quote the same old sources, without checking them. They should ! I read Ms Söderjhelm's book, and there is nothing relevant in it, nothing but speculations.

If you are interested in this matter, I recommend you scholars such as Stanley Loomis, Nesta Webster, Philippe Delorme, Paul and Pierrette Girault de Coursac. Their analysis is no idealization. It is historical critic.

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Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:20 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
Therese wrote:
The problem with Zweig is that he was a disciple of Freud, who analyzed every aspect of life in terms of sexual urges. I take what he says with a grain of salt.

I must read it.
So far, I admire Freud’s work.:!:

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Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:43 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
Marija Vera wrote:
Therese wrote:
The problem with Zweig is that he was a disciple of Freud, who analyzed every aspect of life in terms of sexual urges. I take what he says with a grain of salt.

I must read it.
So far, I admire Freud’s work.:!:


Sorry, but most contemporary psychologists think that Freud is outdated in his interpretations.

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Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:01 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
I know but that does not stop me to be interested in his work. Many intellectuals are against it without giving the proper replacement. He is too radical even for our time, that’s sure.

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Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:13 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
Marija Vera wrote:
I know but that does not stop me to be interested in his work. Many intellectuals are against it without giving the proper replacement. He is too radical even for our time, that’s sure.


Indeed, every scholar of Marie-Antoinette should read his work, just to be aware of his approach, which has influenced many successive works, for both good and ill, mostly ill, since he views the Queen as a mediocre woman, consumed by sexual frustration. There was much more to her than that.

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Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:34 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
I don’t understand. Did Freud ever give his own study of M.A. or we are just talking about scholars influenced by him?? Having the Freud approach towards her would be interesting but not necessary true because Freud, while talking about neurosis in his books, is mentioning how work between the doctor and the patient is crucial. Information about dreams, fears or psychical problems we are gathering through the work with the patient. We do not have enough information about Marie Antoinette or better, we do not have information that are coming from her, that are necessary in order to do a study like that.

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If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men. St. Francis of Assisi


Last edited by Marija Vera on Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:58 pm
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