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 Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen 

Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen were lovers
Yes. 46%  46%  [ 36 ]
No. 38%  38%  [ 30 ]
I really don't know! 15%  15%  [ 12 ]
Total votes : 78

 Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen 
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
Marija Vera wrote:
I don’t understand. Did Freud ever give his own study of M.A. or we are just talking about scholars influenced by him?? Heaving the Freud approach towards her would be interesting but not necessary true because Freud, while talking about neurosis in his books, is mentioning how work between the doctor and the patient is crucial. Information about dreams, fears or psychical problems we are gathering through the work with the patient. We do not have enough information about Marie Antoinette or better, we do not have information that are coming from her, that are necessary in order to do a study like that.


We are talking about Stefan Zweig, a pupil of Freud, and his insistence that all Marie-Antoinette's youthful frivolities were solely due to sexual frustration, rather than to mere joie de vivre which was also a big part of her personality.

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Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:07 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
I understand.
If only that book is published in my country.

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Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:17 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
I believe you can download it here: http://www.archive.org/details/StefanZweigMarieAntoinetteThePortraitOfAnAverageWoman Or, you could buy it on Amazon, which you would pay in US dollars. I was happy to find it, as after all the commentary on it here, I don't want to pay money to read such things! Marie Antoinette, mediocre? The Daughter of the Caesers? :lol:

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Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:40 am
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
You could also get it through interlibrary loan. But yes, Zweig has a rather condescending attitude towards the Queen. I also do not like how he downplays the horrible things that Louis XVII suffered in the Temple prison, emphasizing the poor child's alleged psychosexual issues.

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Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:08 am
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
:shock:

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Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:09 am
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
Yes, indeed. It is truly horrible. But if I had not read it, I would not be able to warn you. 8) :geek:

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Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:12 am
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
You are too kind, dear! :love:

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Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:14 am
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
Thank you! I will try to get it in the near future. I am intrigued with his unusual view. :shock:

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Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:07 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
Marija Vera wrote:
Thank you! I will try to get it in the near future. I am intrigued with his unusual view. :shock:


His view is no longer unusual since it has been imitated by other biographers. Zweig set the tone for many contemporary bios of MA. The "unusual" views are those of people like Bertiere and Delorme, who broke through the sexual stereotypes set by Zweig.

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Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:31 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
Now I want to read Bertiere and Delorme!

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Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:15 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
Marija Vera wrote:
I know but that does not stop me to be interested in his work. Many intellectuals are against it without giving the proper replacement. He is too radical even for our time, that’s sure.


I agree. Freud's theories are indeed questioned nowadays. But modern psychology as a whole stems from his work. Back to the topic of Marie-Antoinette, I agree that Zweig, under the influence of Freud's, might exagerrate the importance of sexuality. But, if you put both Freud and Zweig back into their contexts, you'll have to admit that they had the overwhelming merit to raise those issues.

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Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:05 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
I read that Zweig was indeed close friends with Freud. Which explains the Freudian influence.

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Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:07 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
Marie Antoinette and Hans A. were lovers and Charles was their child. When Charles was proclaimed Louis XVII by the Royalist they, the Royalist had no right to proclaim him so because he did not carry the blood of the Burbon Family. To save face for MA, Hans A. faked the death of Charles and removed him from France and hid him from the restoration. He lived and died in Quebec, married and raised a family there. Many of his family live in Quebec and the USA. He lived and died under the name of Joseph Francois Choiseul and was given the military dit name of Martel which his family mostly used. It seems that in the records everyone had a tough time spelling Choiseul so one will find it spelled many different ways. This is my Thesis and I am a GGGGGrand son of Charles.


Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:44 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
Oh. It is hard to answer a bit now :) because I do not know wich books did you read about this topic or how did you come to this theory! But it is so interesting! Anyway, wecome here! Thanks for sharing your conception!

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Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:50 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
Yes, Welcome Jon A. Are you claiming that the first dauphin - the first boy of Marie Antoinette - did not die and was in reality smuggled out of France as Axel Fersen's son?? If so -Sorry, I mean no offence, but I find this a little far-fetched. Please let me know if I have misunderstood what you've said.


Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:14 pm
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