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 Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen 

Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen were lovers
Yes. 46%  46%  [ 36 ]
No. 38%  38%  [ 30 ]
I really don't know! 15%  15%  [ 12 ]
Total votes : 78

 Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen 
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
Maybe, you have some personal object that you inherited from Louis-Charles, who, as you claimed, is your grandgrandgrandgrandfather?

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Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:47 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
Ludy wrote:
I agree. Freud's theories are indeed questioned nowadays. But modern psychology as a whole stems from his work. Back to the topic of Marie-Antoinette, I agree that Zweig, under the influence of Freud's, might exagerrate the importance of sexuality. But, if you put both Freud and Zweig back into their contexts, you'll have to admit that they had the overwhelming merit to raise those issues.

Yes! I read some of his books and even he claims that sexuality has a large impact on the life of a person and connects it to many frustration and neurosis, I don’t find his theories ridiculous. That doesn’t mean that I completely agree with him, especially when it comes to sexuality of children, babies… Even my open mind can’t accept that easily! :roll: Still, he is a father of psychoanalysis even his approach sometimes seems scandalous even for our time.

Jon A. wrote:
Marie Antoinette and Hans A. were lovers and Charles was their child. When Charles was proclaimed Louis XVII by the Royalist they, the Royalist had no right to proclaim him so because he did not carry the blood of the Burbon Family. To save face for MA, Hans A. faked the death of Charles and removed him from France and hid him from the restoration. He lived and died in Quebec, married and raised a family there. Many of his family live in Quebec and the USA. He lived and died under the name of Joseph Francois Choiseul and was given the military dit name of Martel which his family mostly used. It seems that in the records everyone had a tough time spelling Choiseul so one will find it spelled many different ways. This is my Thesis and I am a GGGGGrand son of Charles.


Interesting but I find this a little far-fetched too. :?:

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Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:20 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
Lilly wrote:
Yes, Welcome Jon A. Are you claiming that the first dauphin - the first boy of Marie Antoinette - did not die and was in reality smuggled out of France as Axel Fersen's son?? If so -Sorry, I mean no offence, but I find this a little far-fetched. Please let me know if I have misunderstood what you've said.



Oops, I meant second son and dauphin - you knew that - I just got rushed earlier..............glad I noticed and corrected myself!
Anyhow, I thought DNA put an end to the speculation as to what happened to this boy.


Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:58 am
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
I guess I don't expect anyone to believe me ................. it's taken me years to draw the conclusion and more years to prove it to my satisfaction and believe it. It is nothing I say lightly. What would a trinket prove? Could you identify it? The DNA test were mtDNA and only prove that the heart came from a member of the family of Marie Antoinette ................ I believe the heart to be the heart of the first son to die, Joseph. the first Dauphin. Actualy it could have been the child of any of Antoinetts sisters or of any daughter of any daughter of her mother, grandmother, etc. It just showed the DNA of the mothers, mother etc.

Charles would have been chalanged if he were put forward for restoration and the truth would have come out. Hans Axel had to hide the boy and he did. The restoration went back to August brother for the blood.

With Nicholas Montour as his agent Charles was well cared for. I show that Charles married when he was 29 and after Hans Axel vonFersen died and Charles died himself at age 44 and was burried in Quebec. His widdow remarried.


Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:42 am
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
Jon A. wrote:
I guess I don't expect anyone to believe me


Yes you're right, but concurrently, I don't want to say that it is not true. Who am I to say it is not true?! Of course it can be true, as to myself I simply do not believe it! And I don't think that anyone could believe this :lol:

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Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:31 am
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
Facts? Can you back up this claim? If you do not say this lightly - please give us something convincing.


Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:04 am
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
The question presented is "Facts, can you prove it?" To my satisfaction, sure. To yours? I don't know. I've worked in earnest tracing the family tree of Joseph Francois Choiseul, dit Martel since 1984 and have developed a 22,000 plus person family tree in the process. I am guessing, with out counting that 300 or so are descendents of Charles. I've taught myself to read French Priest Books fairly well and speak it a little, The family tree spans two continents, Four Countries and three languages. Toconvey to you the knowledge I have developed and to get you to believe it would take quite a commitment on your part. Are you willing to do the research and see if you draw the same conclusion? If you can say that Joseph Francois isn't Charles and that the father of Charles isn't Hans Axe, then you must know who the parents of Joseph Francois are. Will you tell me so we will both know? Like I said, I don't expect anyone to believe me and I am working on the book. The book is some distance in the future and like any other book you can read it or not.

Remember that Charles was in the witness protection program of the day so to speak and no one left signed affidavits as to the events that transpired so the best one can hope for is to study the available data and draw a conclusion. Now if you translate my name into Swede it becomes Hans A. I know that my grandmother insisted I be named Hans Axel but my mother consented for Jon Alan. I know that's a family story and none of you experienced it before. I also know it is one of many clues left behind. I couldn't write an email long enough to list them all. That would be called a book. When one starts to look at the available data in different languages then the events become clearer ......... like I said, three languages.

Jon A.


Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:18 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
The question is still - Facts? You are making the claim, it is not for me to do the reaesrch! You claim to have done it, so what are your facts?
Surely you did not think that this would not be questioned! Charles, "witness protection program"????? I do not think I am understanding you.
This is still not clear.......................................what is it you are trying to say?


Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:10 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
It's whatever! probably he never will prove his speculation :lol: This theory is so uncertain!

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Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:53 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
Facts ............... how long do you have to listen, how long do I have to write. If you have a specific question you want answered let me know or wait till the book is done. Facts is a broad catagory to answer. Now if you asked where he died I would answer Point du Lac, QC. Did he marry? Yes to Marie Marguerite Elizabeth Dupont. What facts would you like to know? If your request is for all of them then you will have to wait for the book because I can't devote that much time to an email.

Jon A.


Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:05 pm
Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
The witness protection program of the day means ................................. there was no sign out front saying Charles lives here and he use a name derived partly from one of his rescurers, Claude Antoine Gabriel Choiseul-Stainville, who with Fersen was responsable for the planning of the flight to Varenees. Like I said, I expect few to believe me. It is interesting that the roads leading to the manor where he lived are now called Rang St. Charles and the Kings Highway. I am trying to think of the french name for "The Kings Highway and am drawing a blank. Is it Le Chemin du Roi? Charles was in hiding and few clues were left. It is interesting that all the unknow to me branches of the family that I spoke to and met all shared a legend of being decendent of Charles, however, none of them knew who Charles was.

Thanks.

Jon A.


Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:23 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
Jon A. wrote:
Marie Antoinette and Hans A. were lovers and Charles was their child. When Charles was proclaimed Louis XVII by the Royalist they, the Royalist had no right to proclaim him so because he did not carry the blood of the Burbon Family. To save face for MA, Hans A. faked the death of Charles and removed him from France and hid him from the restoration. He lived and died in Quebec, married and raised a family there. Many of his family live in Quebec and the USA. He lived and died under the name of Joseph Francois Choiseul and was given the military dit name of Martel which his family mostly used. It seems that in the records everyone had a tough time spelling Choiseul so one will find it spelled many different ways. This is my Thesis and I am a GGGGGrand son of Charles.

Well... were are those references and historical sources you rely on, dear ?

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Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:20 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
the question is ..................... where are the facts? Their kept in the various government offices in France, Sweden, Canada and the USA. Certain records were kept in the juristictions of the Churches. I have a CD or two worth on my computer and maybe 15 volumes by various authors on the subject, I hold subscriptions at Ancestry.com, belong to several genealogical societys and have access to an unlimited suply of facts. The facts that led me to the conclusion are enough to fill a really big volume, much more than I can write in an email. If you could narrow it down to a question concerning an event then perhaps I can answer that.

So the estate/mannor/seigneurial belonged to the Tonnoncour Family at Point du Lac. The Tonnoncour family, as I understand it for financial reasons sold out the estate to Nicholas Montour. After interviewing members of the Montour family I found they refered to Montour as an agent of the King and that Montour didn't live in the Mannor, Martel did.................. there is one fact.

Another Fact ............... the grave of Martel was destroyed a few years ago by vandals, before it was destroyed it was much like the graves of the French Nobles in the North of Paris. Full size statues of Angles etc. On the main stone it was inscribed that "He was a friend of the people" In common terms of the day "The friend of the people was the King"

another fact ................................ Martels widow, at the time of her next marrage proclaimed to the Priest that she was the widow of Joceph Francois Choiseul, dit Martel.

in the genealogy I did of the Choiseul family ther are no children of suitable age to be Joseph Francois Choiseul, dit Martel. The Choiseuls are a Noble Family of Royal Blood

One of the Choiseul men was an officer in the Kings Guard and it is known that he participated in at least one attempt to save the royal family. The flight to Varennes

another fact ................ Martel is a dit name for that one I would suggest you read"The Military Roots of dit names by Dr. Luc LePin.

http://www.histori.ca/prodev/article.do ... 2?id=15346

so are you comitted enough to become a scholar on the subject? There are many, many more facts ........ volums of them. How much do you want to study? How badly do you want to know? This isn't like giving someone a recipe for Pâté Chinois.

Ps my spelling is not good because I think sometimes in a couple of languages, especialy when I am tired.

Thanks.

Jon A.


Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:24 am
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
Honestly Jon..... :roll:

Please read EM Vidal's recent post on the Fersen mirage: http://teaattrianon.blogspot.com/2009/01/here-we-go-again.html

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Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:48 am
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
You are so right, Délicate Fleur: history cannot be faked!

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Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:58 am
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