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Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen
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Author:  baron de batz [ Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Totally wrong about Louis XVI being only interested in those things you quote.

I suggest you read a book by Jean-Dominique BOURZAT called "Les après-midi de Louis XVI".

He was in fact interested in a wide range of subjects and an extremely well read man, with sufficient knowledge of maritime trade and geography to bring his own corrections to the brief of the exploratory voyage of La Perouse to trace and map new regions.

Author:  princesse [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:

Therese wrote:
I do not believe that they were lovers.

i BELEIVE THE WERE LOVERS, CAUSE SIMPLY WHEN YOU LOVE SOMEONE IT IS NATURAL THAT YOU DESIRE HIM/HER, don't you?
Most of all in dangerous times, like the one in Tuileries, I'm sure MA needed to have a man near to feel saved :angel1:

Author:  baron de batz [ Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

I believe too that they were probably lovers. As you say these were extraordinary times, and therefore people behaved differently. She knew that her life was in danger, she had little to lose. And she had far more freedom, despite the guards posted at her door, than she would have had at Versailles. And even there she was freeer than any Queen before her, a freedom she insisted on. No doubt the guards at her door had a brief to let things happen to, in order to compromise her. Napoleon refers to Fersen without hesitation as the Queen's ex lover, and he had sources enough.

Author:  Lilly [ Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

I also believe that they were lovers. When a woman and a man love each other, they find a way to be together.

Author:  baron de batz [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Well it wasn't so easy as that in the 18th century with the constraints of etiquette and the fact that the Queen was almost never left alone, but I agree they may have found a way in what were desperate and uniquely troubled times.

Author:  Ludy [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

baron de batz wrote:
Napoleon refers to Fersen without hesitation as the Queen's ex lover, and he had sources enough.


Interesting, I would like to read that quote ! I don't think Napoleon had very good sources, he was from an other generation and did not mix with a lot of people from the Old Regime that could have known about this issue, except, maybe, Madame Campan. Maybe did he just repeat what had become a urban legend at that time.

... I am not saying I do not think they were lovers.

Author:  baron de batz [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Well through Joséphine he had his bridge to the Ancien Regime. For example Talleyrand!

Author:  Natalia [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

I certainly think that MA and Fersen loved each other. But MA was a religious woman, so I don't think they made love with each other. Also: when would they have done it?
I found a few excerpts from letters to his sister Sophie in 1783:


I have been feeling happier, because I can meet my friend without any reticence from her, and this is to her little comfort in all her unhappiness. Poor woman! She is an angel of kindness, brave in her delicacy. Never have I been so loved. She is very happy for the greetings you sent her and asks me to tell you, that she is deeply touched by them. She would be so happy to see you. She hopes, that our plans will work, you will come here, and this thought makes he happy. Maybe that is a dream that can come true.


and

I have decided. I shall never be married. It would be unatural. When the tradgedy will come, that my I will loose mother and father, it will be you, dear Sophie, that will replace both of them, and also a wife. You shall be the hostess in my house, that shall be as much yours as it shall be mine, and we will never be apart. I can not belong to the only woman I wanted to belong to, the only who really loved me and therefore I shall not commit myself to anyone.

So nothing here really sugest that this woman have to be MA. But in the year 1778 he have written:

The Queen, who is the most beautiful and lovable princess, I know, had the kindes to tell me in person: she have asked Creutz, why I have not been at her game party on Sundays, and when she was informed, that I had been there, when there had been no game party, she gave me some sort of apology.

and

The Queen treats me with great benevolence; I often find myself at the gambling table to tell her my reverence, and every time she tells me a few kind words. As they come to talk to her about my uniform, she proved to be very inclined to see me wearing the same: I will next Tuesday wear my uniform, but not at court, but the queen's private apartment. She is the most lovable princess, I know.

I will try to get a copy of his diary and see what more he says about his time in France.

Author:  Monsieur Etiquette [ Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

I think perhaps (and of course, this is a personal view) that while they were not lovers - that they did not physically make love sexually - they had a rather emotional bond, which some may call a variant on love.

Certainly, I don't see any reason to say that she was unhappy with Louis. For all his refusal in their earlier years for sex, as we all well know, she was not some salacious seducer - at least when it came to matters of lust over practicality (ie, the consummation of marriage, the possibility of a Dauphin, etc.).

We know she was close to several groups of men, and though they varied in age, most were good-looking. I think Fraser deals with von Fersen, actually, in her biography, and dismisses it, though for slightly different reasons (more logistical ones than anything else).

But her bond with these other men, including von Fersen? I am rather inclined to see it more as a emotional bond, a companionship; certainly, talking to them would be a considerable difference as compared to her husband. Maybe she flirted with them once or twice, but essentially, I feel that no physical intercourse was undertaken with her and von Fersen, who had already plenty of other lovers.

Author:  Ludy [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

I have no idea wether they were lovers or not. Many conclusive documents were destroyed.

I find it odd however that Marie-Antoinette may have had an affair with him, knowing that he was sleeping with an other woman. She also doesn't strike me as a very sensual person.

I think that the argument about Fersen stretching the truth about this affair, especially after Marie-Antoinette's death, is also quite convincing.
Men have a general tendency to be easily mistaken when it comes to women's feelings, and apparently, the least that can be said about Fersen is that he did not suffer from excessive modesty.

Author:  baron de batz [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

True, he did hold himself in fairly high esteem, and as all the women at court cooed over him, that made matters worse. He also kept a kind of icy dark romantic distance which made women even crazier about him.

Author:  Lilly [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

[quote="Ludy"]Men have a general tendency to be easily mistaken when it comes to women's feelings, and apparently, the least that can be said about Fersen is that he did not suffer from excessive modesty.

Absolutely great line, Ludy-I totally agree!

Author:  Monsieur Etiquette [ Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

I tend to agree with Lever, though I don't believe her relationship was even as strong as Lever argues.

I personally see them as rather close, a bit like d'Artois (but of course, without the d'Orleans' influence; the ambassador side of Fersen is different altogether), but not as close as to be lovers or the like. It was definitely a platonic relationship, providing her with the laughs and such, yet to me, not enough to constitute the realisation of the speculation that has been done over the past two centuries.

Author:  baron de batz [ Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Monsieur Etiquette wrote:

It was definitely a platonic relationship, providing her with the laughs and such,

I don't see where you get the "definitely" from?

Author:  Monsieur Etiquette [ Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Ah, well there you go - true, it is to me personally a definitely platonic relationship. Biographers such as Lever agree, while Fraser doesn't. I could go into that, perhaps another time.

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