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 Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen 

Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen were lovers
Yes. 46%  46%  [ 36 ]
No. 38%  38%  [ 30 ]
I really don't know! 15%  15%  [ 12 ]
Total votes : 78

 Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen 
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Oui, je comprends, absolument!

I like to debate, too.


Axel was not a bad man, just man of the world, and he put his queen on a pedestal, like a madonna.

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Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:34 pm
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I voted no. Marie-Antoinette and Fersen were perhaps good friends, but I think that they weren't lovers.

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Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:34 am
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Indeed, Victoire-Adelaïde... First of all, when and where could they be lovers ? Every movie, every book portraying them so seem unaccurate... Marie-Antoinette walking alone, tranquilly, in her garden ? Marie-Antoinette receiving Fersen's nocturnal visit ? Come on...

A French medium (Marie Delorme - "l"anneau sacré du temple") even describes him jumping on a coach roof to climb the walls and meet his beloved queen...

As we often said, we learn more about writers' psychologies than about true history !

Mon cher Chou-Charles, I'm not so sure Fersen gave Antoinette so much happiness... Reading Kermina's biography of the count and articles can be interesting about this peculiar point. She is rather severe with the character she studies... Fersen "ruled France from Brussels", she wrote... This cool ambitious man did not hesitate to be somehow harsh with his idol... so that poor little Antoinette had to reply : "Here are these letters. I hope you will find them right."... and we feel so much how she fears from the answer...

Poor Antoinette who, most of all, needed sweetness...

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Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:29 am
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Chou-Charles...it is very nice good ideas Pimprenelle :D

Ah I don't not completely agree with you dear Pimprenelle (I love to discuss with you about Fersen :P ).
Marie-Antoinette wished so much to do correctly the things (exept when she was young) so as to be appreciated by the others and consequently she could be demanding with herself.
The fact that she did make efforts of writing can also be a great proof of friendship no? :wink:
She whiched to have his news so much, it is that she appreciated him I think.

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Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:51 pm
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Well... I think she relied on him so much, too much, in my view, for he was too aristocratic and oldfashion. Un gros ringard, quoi ! :lol: (a big out of time oldfashion chap !). Didn't he commit this awful Brunswick manifesto, that precipited the fall of French monarchy ?

In my view, she was completely lost, and blindly followed Fersen's orders. Too desperate, too tired from writing all the time, from all those sleepless nights, from all those terrors...

Anyway, she once had to call her sigibeo back, hadn't she ? "Lâche qui les abandonne"... She had to send him a ring with "coward who let them down", in order to awaken his loyalty !

Now, let's make an uchrony... What if their plans had succedeed ? What if Marie-Antoinette would have become regent ? How big would have been Fersen's place in her government ! 8) But, finally, poor guy, all he got was his reputation of lover of a beheaded queen... :lol:

Too bad, isn't it ? But better than nothing, after all... :roll: And he knew how to use it !

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Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:42 pm
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:P Ah I imagine Fersen hearing that :D

Marie-Antoinette was Aristocratic too, and monarchy was as important for Marie-Antoinette as for Fersen. But indeed fersen was more extremist I agree with you.

But he did not give as well orders as that, his letters were not very many, and because Marie-Antoinette wanted to have his news. She claimed Fersen's news :D
I don't think that it is the tiredness which do that...Marie-Antoinette was always frank and honest.

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Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:53 pm
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Marie-Antoinette was always frank and honest exept with Mirabeau and Barnave :lol:

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Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:54 pm
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You'll be surprised, but I don't think she manipulated them that much, actually... She was crucified between all these opposite views, and she tried to be friend with each part, just in case...

What could she do, between Barnave (who actually had no effective power longer...), the emigrates (who put frontiers on fire and betrayed their brothers once more - Cain !), and Fersen (who executed his fanatic king's orders) ? And she was imprisoned, and fearing each day more for her children's lifes...

But should her old confident Fersen calm her down and praise for constitutional monarchy, instead of being so fanatic, she would have listened to him, I guess...

I don't have my Lever's edition right here, so that I can't verify, Chou-Charles. However, I remember some correspondence between Antoinette and Fersen, dated 1792, I think, that was rather terrible... She wrote, and sent for corrections, just like a shy little girl trembling in front of her mentor.

This gives another light on their relationships... and this light I just hate ! :evil:

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Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:10 pm
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Yes I think too that she wanted to use all possibilities to save her family, even if it was equivalent of "sympathizing" with revolutionists.

Quote:
don't have my Lever's edition right here


Do you speak about "Marie-Antoinette correspondance - 1770-1793"?
I don't remember to have read letters of this kind... Even in the other edition of the Marie-Antoinette's letters (2 tomes).
Was she so trembling? :D
Perhaps she was like that because of fear...she risked her life and her family's life : I think it's a normal reaction.

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Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:26 pm
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Yes, I'm talking about these correspondences. I'll try to verify later, if I have time, for I have to prepare my tripp, and... guess what... :D I just bought "Marie-Antoinette" by Lefranc, staring Geneviève Casile. Woaw !

You're right, she was in destress first of all. Anyhow, I think Kermina is right about Fersen's bad temper. I feel that too... that's why I am so less enthusiastic about him. I think he was a selfish seductive man, an ambitious courtier, and a manipulative chap, furthermore an hypochondriac, who could only love himself and his sister Sophie, and felt able of really loving Marie-Antoinette after her death only.

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Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:05 pm
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May I go off on a bit of a tangent and mention this from Georgiana, Duchess of Devonshire who wrote on seeing Fersen for the first time -

"he has delightful eyes, the finest contenance that can be, and the most gentleman like air. Thank God I ain`t in love with him."

(Georgiana: extracts from the Correspondence of Georgiana Duchess of Devonshire)

I think this lady must have been quite a character ! :D [/i]


Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:08 pm
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Pimprenelle a écrit

Quote:
Yes, I'm talking about these correspondences. I'll try to verify later


I'll look for too, this book is in my library :D


You're right Vivienne, Fersen had the reputation to be very beautiful and sexy.
But in his paintings, I don't agree...personally I don't see a beautiful man...but it's just my opinion :lol:

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Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:19 pm
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I like him on this painting:
Image
As a very young man, he looked delightfully romantic, didn't he ?

However, there...
Image
... he frightens me... as sharp as his cold little notes in his diary...

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Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:33 pm
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It's true that Fersen was nicer young person than thereafter :lol:

May be it's like Marie-Antoinette : with the stress and disappointments he lost charm :D

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Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:40 pm
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Quote:
May be it's like Marie-Antoinette : with the stress and disappointments he lost charm

Quoi ?! Sacrilège !
Image

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Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:49 pm
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