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 but what about the rest? 
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It is about not gaining something by force (vi), but by obstination (cadendo - by falling, which is simply natural for water).

As it is a symbol, you would ruin it by simply translating it. You'd better have to mentally see it, see a drop of water constantly falling at the same place of the rock, exacty, again and again...

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Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:08 am
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Pimprenelle wrote:
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I would be delighted with what ever you can help me. I hope you understand it is my nature which makes me question all things and not take history at face value.


Dear melly, what do you mean, exactly ?

Maybe you are asking for these references you asked me to search for. Well... I am currently reading several books myself, for my personal education, so that I had no time yet for thinking of yours, dear. But just open the Giraut de Coursac's "Vie politique, vie conjugale", or Delorme's or Bertiere's "Marie-Antoinette", I guess you'll find all the required information about this disrobement. Certainly Mme Lever, who is a very serious scholar, also mentioned some footnotes.

Merci, très chère Aurora ! Being a teacher almost each day of my life, I am happy to have a break for Halloween, now ! :wink:


Dear Pimp,

What do I mean? :?

Perhaps we are having a language problem but if you go back read my posts I am not asking you to teach me or to search for anything for me.

I am merely asking you where you get all this information you share from? A book? Which book? etc. Please try to understand you write a lot of things as if they are just a given. But you never say where they come from. Asking for this is not teaching or searching for me, it is simply a matter of scholarship.

If I have somehow trespassed on something or someone I am sorry, it was not my intent. But if I, an-unknown to you, were to post and say things about Marie Antoinette you have never heard before would you just accept it, or you would ask where it came from?

If I say I delighted for any of your help, I am trying to be polite!

Is this clearer?

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Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:46 am
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Pimprenelle wrote:
It is about not gaining something by force (vi), but by obstination (cadendo - by falling, which is simply natural for water).

As it is a symbol, you would ruin it by simply translating it. You'd better have to mentally see it, see a drop of water constantly falling at the same place of the rock, exacty, again and again...


Yes, the 'visual' explains very well, thank you :) Pimp!

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Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:57 am
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Quote:
I am merely asking you where you get all this information you share from? A book? Which book? etc. Please try to understand you write a lot of things as if they are just a given. But you never say where they come from. Asking for this is not teaching or searching for me, it is simply a matter of scholarship.


No, melly. I almost all the time try, the best I can, to mention my sources. I am sorry for you if the biggest part of them comes from French books, and you don't read French. After all, Marie-Antoinette used to live in France for so many years... it is normal that so much information is in French.

Please find hereafter listed some of my posts mentioning authors I am referring to :
http://www.marie-antoinette.org/forum/v ... 52&start=0
http://www.marie-antoinette.org/forum/v ... c&start=15
http://www.marie-antoinette.org/forum/v ... c&start=30
http://www.marie-antoinette.org/forum/v ... c&start=45

Well... you won't have to go that far ! I only had to surf on this specific thread... Do you still ask for more ?

With regards to this disrobement, since you don't believe scholars like Mme Lever (Marie-Antoinette, Fayard, 1991, p. 31), Delorme (Marie-Antoinette, Pygmalion, Gérard Watelet, 1999, p. 37), please refer to the patient archives reasearchs made by Paul and Pierrette Giraut de Coursac (Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette, vie conjugale, vie politique, O.E.I.L., 1990, p. 30). You could see in their abovementioned book that they rely on archives such as the journal du mariage, by the Menu-Plaisirs intendant (A.N. O1 1043) and the letters between Austrian and French ambassies (chancelleries).

Is that "scholar" enough for you, dear ? I hope you are going to check these archives, now !

And, one more detail... yes, I knew about all these for sure, having read these yet... Verifying these for you made me loose my time. If this board may become such a place where we don't confide in each other, well, I'll just stop posting, then...

Oh, but... maybe that's just all you want, melly...

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Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:26 am
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This is probably pointless. If you want to take what I said and try to twist it to mean what it doesn't and then get angry when you have nothing to be angry over that is up to you.

Writing is the hardest way to communicate with no voice intonations, facial expressions. It is very easy for things to go overboard esp if one is looking for something to fight over!

There are many posts you have made on this board where you just state things as if they are a given, t...but I won't waste MY time listing them. It would be redundant as the posts are all on this board!

If you misunderstand my English or I do not write clear enough for you in time we could learn to speak to each other? But you do not have the right to be rude to me or accuse me of hoping you would stop posting.
What on earth makes you say something that mean to someone you don't even know?

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Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:13 pm
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I don't understand very well...(ah my english..) what are you looking for exactly Melly?

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Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:49 pm
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... fighting and arguing, obviously... :wink:

Aren't you happy with all the references I gave you, melly ? Or are you waiting for me to also translate them for you ?

No, English is not my mothertongue, as for many around there. But I always understood what people meant on this very sweet board. Probably because they sincerely wished to be understood... Maybe they made efforts for not using too colloquial or unusual forms... ?

It is the first time here I have problems for understanding someone. And it is also the first time someone is so disagreeable to me. Strange coincidence, isn't it ?

I never found writing difficult, and be sure I don't need your facial expressions ! Your words will do... :lol:

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Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:35 pm
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melly wrote:
This is probably pointless. If you want to take what I said and try to twist it to mean what it doesn't and then get angry when you have nothing to be angry over that is up to you.

Writing is the hardest way to communicate with no voice intonations, facial expressions. It is very easy for things to go overboard esp if one is looking for something to fight over!

There are many posts you have made on this board where you just state things as if they are a given, t...but I won't waste MY time listing them. It would be redundant as the posts are all on this board!

If you misunderstand my English or I do not write clear enough for you in time we could learn to speak to each other? But you do not have the right to be rude to me or accuse me of hoping you would stop posting.
What on earth makes you say something that mean to someone you don't even know?


Melly, Pimprenelle (please do not call her "Pimp") has been very polite to you. She has not been rude at all. She understands your English only too well. She has offered more than enough citations to back her opinions. You are free to agree or not.

As I said before, the burden of proof rests with those who believe that the queen loved Fersen, since the overwhelming evidence of her life shows she was devoted to her husband; she would not leave him even when it met losing her life.

This is not a court of law. No one is under any obligation to prove anything, but share ideas and resources as they see fit.

I, for one, am not returning to this thread of discussion if you persist in being so belligerent.

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Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:45 pm
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Pimprenelle wrote:
... fighting and arguing, obviously... :wink:

Aren't you happy with all the references I gave you, melly ? Or are you waiting for me to also translate them for you ?

No, English is not my mothertongue, as for many around there. But I always understood what people meant on this very sweet board. Probably because they sincerely wished to be understood... Maybe they made efforts for not using too colloquial or unusual forms... ?

It is the first time here I have problems for understanding someone. And it is also the first time someone is so disagreeable to me. Strange coincidence, isn't it ?

I never found writing difficult, and be sure I don't need your facial expressions ! Your words will do... :lol:


I have not been disagreeable or argumentative to you until today. Even in my last post I tried to reach out and and say with time we could learn to understand each other, but YOU decided to continue to be sarcastic, ignorant and rude. I don't know what you think you will gain from it.

There is clearly problem, and I don't know what I did to you or what you THINK I did to you. I think perhaps you read way too much into things! Or perhaps you have issues with anyone questioning your correctness? I am sorry asking you where you get your information from was seen as some insult. That was never my intention.

That is finished. If you feel the need to continue to be sarcastic and rude, then just ignore me from now on.

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Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:02 pm
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I never was rude to you. I am happy Therese noticed it too. You kept asking for references. Well, you have them now.

I just hope you won't go on playing devil's advocates and ask us for complete references each time we discuss on this board ! :roll:

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Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:08 pm
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I would like to ask you to not argue... We are all here with one objective: learning more about the Queen Marie Antoinette.

There were a certainly a misunderstanding between you, but you shouldn't give to much importance to that...

:wink:

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Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:14 pm
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You are right, Jules ! Learning more about queen Marie-Antoinette is all I want, is even all I am devoted to !

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Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:27 pm
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Vive la Reine de France, Marie Antoinette! :D

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Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:39 pm
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:D

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Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:19 pm
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I think Melly that with all the references which were quoted on this forum you can have an objective idea of the various debates about Marie-Antoinette. :wink:

And as Jules de Polignac said very well : Vive Marie-Antoinette :D

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Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:10 pm
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