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 your opinion 

Marie Antoinette and Fersen love: ideal or consummated love?
It was an ideal love. 43%  43%  [ 9 ]
They consummated your love. 29%  29%  [ 6 ]
I don't know! 29%  29%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 21

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Marie Antoinette's love!


Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:04 pm
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I dont think MA slept with Fersen.


Mon Apr 03, 2006 2:44 am
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Sorry, dear CrY, but I must agree with Monsieur!


Mon Apr 03, 2006 2:46 am
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I could not vote, CrY, since there were only "love" possibilities in your poll ! To me, Fersen was the defendor of royals, all royals. He should defend his king Gustaf III in danger, too. His concerns were most of all ambition and politics.

He tried to protect king and queen of France in despair. And he had been one of Marie-Antoinette's best friends, among others.

You would find no letter in Marie-Antoinette's correspondence where she uses the world "amour"... except for affectionately nicknaming her son "le chou d'amour". She wrote to Fersen that she loved him, as she did to every person whom, indeed, she did. She loved so many people... But, to qualify these feelings, she always writes "amitié".

I think it's relevant in French, since from latin "amare" come "aimer, amour, amitié". For "amour" and "amitié" are different things !

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Mon Apr 03, 2006 7:03 am
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Yes, but I want to specify that my polls don't give a strict vision of her relationship with fersen; I want only to give the opportunity to talk about the several aspects of her life! Just for it!
bye


Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:12 am
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I voted for I don't know because I just don't. I need to do a lot more reading. So far I've come to the conclusion that it probably isn't possible to say for definite whether they slept together - unless anyone wants to contradict that. As such it's probably better NOT to presume that they did because that's a presumption that can't be proven. A lot of biographers seem to make this presumption though.

In any case, I don't think - again, correct me if I am wrong - that there has ever been any serious suggestion that Antoinette's children were fathered by anyone other than Louis.

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Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:59 pm
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Quote:
In any case, I don't think - again, correct me if I am wrong - that there has ever been any serious suggestion that Antoinette's children were fathered by anyone other than Louis.


Nothing serious, you said it... But rumors were immediately spread out by those who had interest in considering Louis' children as illegimate. Fat Provence was not the last one to promote these calumnies, of course...

Versailles courtiers imagined that Artois fathered Antoinette's children, or Lauzun, or Fersen...

Nowadays, novelists forget about Artois, Besenval, Vaudreuil or Lauzun. They only focuse on Fersen... and some pretend that Louis Charles would be a little Swede... the children of love ! :lol:

That's the difference between novels and historical accuracy !

Fortunately, all novels are not as Messadie's awful one. There are serious and sensible novelists, such as Elena Maria Vidal, for instance.

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Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:53 pm
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I guess that there is some similarity between the stories that were circulated about the Queen and the stories that are circulated about modern day 'celebrities' in trashy magazines and newspapers. People believe what they want to believe.

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Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:36 pm
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One could also wonder about tabloids hidden agendas, then... For the aims concerning Marie Antoinette were clear. Those who spread infamous rumors wanted to spoil her reputation in order to weaken the crown.

On the one hand, we have Provence, who wanted to sit on the throne and found interesting to put suspicion upon the heirs produced by his brother.

On the other hand, we had those who wanted to destroy monarchy, and found an easy prey in Marie Antoinette. Being an Austrian, and a woman, she was a natural weakest link.

And, of course... there is also England, the old enemy, that helped these awful literature published, so as to put disorder into France.

What could be today tabloids' hidden agendas ?

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Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:45 pm
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Sheer spite I would imagine. Ultimately, people will buy magazines which have screaming, gossipy headlines about minor celebrities.. goodness knows why. And it applies to the current royal family as well (I am not a monarchist, actually, but nonetheless it must be hell to be followed around by papparazzi all the time). Invent or embelish a sleazy story and your circulation immediately increases.

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Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:02 pm
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Pimprenelle wrote:
One could also wonder about tabloids hidden agendas, then... For the aims concerning Marie Antoinette were clear. Those who spread infamous rumors wanted to spoil her reputation in order to weaken the crown.

On the one hand, we have Provence, who wanted to sit on the throne and found interesting to put suspicion upon the heirs produced by his brother.

On the other hand, we had those who wanted to destroy monarchy, and found an easy prey in Marie Antoinette. Being an Austrian, and a woman, she was a natural weakest link.

And, of course... there is also England, the old enemy, that helped these awful literature published, so as to put disorder into France.

What could be today tabloids' hidden agendas ?


You are absolutely right, Pimprenelle. There were people who were determined to weaken the crown for their own agendas, and the beautiful queen was the perfect target.

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Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:40 pm
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She certainly was not entirely blameless though, although she did not deserve the fate that was meted out to her. She WAS extravagent and she did spend a lot of money - on clothes, on jewels, on the Trianon. Granted a good deal of the stuff that was circulated about her - especially about her extra marital affairs - was apparently made up but that doesn't mean that she didn't do her share in weakening the monarchy.

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Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:30 pm
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Marie-Antoinette was not anywhere near as extravagant as the king's brothers and some other members of the royal family. People criticized her for her love of simple attire and when she dressed like a queen she was also criticized. She was once again singled out as a target when she did a lot to cut back expenses in the royal household.

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Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:35 pm
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Indeed Thérèse… Marie-Antoinette was criticized for whatever she did since 1785… the reasons of criticisms were only pretexts… :?

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Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:38 pm
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Quote:
Marie-Antoinette was not anywhere near as extravagant as the king's brothers and some other members of the royal family. People criticized her for her love of simple attire and when she dressed like a queen she was also criticized. She was once again singled out as a target when she did a lot to cut back expenses in the royal household.

I agree with you, dear Therese. Marie Antoinette was not responsible at all for her terrible fate. She was not that extravagant, nor was she that frivolous. People blamed her for whatever she did, as Chou pointed. It is her reputation that caused her fate, not her actions.

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Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:29 pm
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