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Noble
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Post Why
I have some questions, why was Marie-Therese's Aunt killed? why was Marie therese the only living child? why did they spear her? Do you think if MA wasn't from Austria people would have liked her more? what I don't understand, I have read that she was good with charity, so why was the people so angry with her saying she spent the money on herself? Is there any real proof that MA had an affair? And the fact that they killed her best friend and placed her head so MA could see it, this seems to me, they hated everything about MA, she didn't seem that bad to me, so what was the problem? Do you think they let MA see her husband before they killed him? If I am not mistaken, I think i read somewhere they was saying because of her so called affair one of her children was in questioning who was the father, is that correct? I ordered a book on MA, cant wait to get it to read it and understand what happen, but until then, can someone help me with these questions.

Candy


Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:57 pm
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Post Re: Why
Candy, there are honestly too many questions here for people to digest straight away. Perhaps they can be broken down and answered by a few people.

Marie-Therese's great-aunts (Mesdames Tantes) were not killed. They escaped to Rome under the protection of the Pope.

Even though Marie Antoinette was a kind, intelligent and moral Queen there are many reasons why she came to be despised. I recommend you read some of the threads under Revolution or Marie Antoinette to find out more, particularly about the Fersen myth.

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Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:11 pm
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Post Re: Why
I didnt mean for all the answers to be given to me straight away, i dont remember in my post saying right away, but for now on, if i have a question i shall read other post, or wait for my book to come in, i just thought other people question was being answered, so why not mines? I just thought that it was so many people on this board and know a lot about her, they wouldnt mine helping me about her. I thought maybe one person could answer one or two question, I didnt want one person to answer all the question that i asked, but I shall look on the revolution. Thanks for the info.

candy


Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:42 pm
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Post Re: Why
candy wrote:
I have some questions, why was Marie-Therese's Aunt killed?

Candy


Marie-Therese's aunt Madame Elisabeth of France was killed because she was accused of betraying France.

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Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:36 am
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Post Re: Why
Quel horreur, how silly of me! I wasn't thinking of Madame Elisabeth! :oops:

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Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:13 am
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Post Re: Why
Candy, I will try to answer some of your questions:
Marie Antoinette had two living children at the time she was sent to prison: a girl and a boy. The girl lived on and married ( no children); I don't know why she was spared. The boy (probably because he was next in line to the throne) was taken from prison before his mother's death and placed into the hands of the revolutionaries and was brainwashed. Some of his testimony was used during MA's trial, but was clearly false. The people were angry with her because the times were "hard". Taxes were very high and food was scarce; irregardless of the food/bread the nobles would donate. Every winter more and more peasants would die of starvation. It is in times like these when the royalty are closely scrutinized for their expenditures/lifestyle. And a lot of France's woes at the time were blamed on the royalty. Louis XVI's court was extravagant (which didn't help matters), but not nearly as much as Louis XV's or Louis XIV's court. (It had been at least 100 years of extravagance and over-indulgence in the courts) .I don't believe that there is any real "cast in stone" proof that MA had an affair, but many historians have hinted that she had a special fondness for a Count Axel from Norway (I believe). This would be based on letters from the era. Madame Lamballe, who was MA's friend, was brutally murdered by the revolutionaries. Yes, I believe the intent was to deeply wound MA.
One book that I read does have MA meeting with her husband and children the nite before he was executed. Whether it is true or pure conjectutre of the writer, I do not know.
When you read your new books, keep conjecture in mind. The author was not present at the time and may add his/her own slant to the story. It isn't like today when you have reporters following and reporting on your every move (ie Princess Diana). So we have to read historical fiction with a grain of salt. :angel8:


Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:11 pm
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Post Re: Why
jolie_blon wrote:
Candy, I will try to answer some of your questions:
Marie Antoinette had two living children at the time she was sent to prison: a girl and a boy. The girl lived on and married ( no children); I don't know why she was spared. The boy (probably because he was next in line to the throne) was taken from prison before his mother's death and placed into the hands of the revolutionaries and was brainwashed. Some of his testimony was used during MA's trial, but was clearly false. The people were angry with her because the times were "hard". Taxes were very high and food was scarce; irregardless of the food/bread the nobles would donate. Every winter more and more peasants would die of starvation. It is in times like these when the royalty are closely scrutinized for their expenditures/lifestyle. And a lot of France's woes at the time were blamed on the royalty. Louis XVI's court was extravagant (which didn't help matters), but not nearly as much as Louis XV's or Louis XIV's court. (It had been at least 100 years of extravagance and over-indulgence in the courts) .I don't believe that there is any real "cast in stone" proof that MA had an affair, but many historians have hinted that she had a special fondness for a Count Axel from Norway (I believe). This would be based on letters from the era. Madame Lamballe, who was MA's friend, was brutally murdered by the revolutionaries. Yes, I believe the intent was to deeply wound MA.
One book that I read does have MA meeting with her husband and children the nite before he was executed. Whether it is true or pure conjectutre of the writer, I do not know.
When you read your new books, keep conjecture in mind. The author was not present at the time and may add his/her own slant to the story. It isn't like today when you have reporters following and reporting on your every move (ie Princess Diana). So we have to read historical fiction with a grain of salt. :angel8:


Count Fersen was from Sweden. That he had an alleged affair with the Queen is based on nothing but pure conjecture. At any rate, it had nothing to do with causing the Revoltion.

It is a matter of historical record, however, that the King saw his family the night before his execution.

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Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:26 pm
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Post Re: Why
Thank you all so very much for your help, i hope soon I can be equal to you, able to help when someone needs to know something. This is a big help and i understand more, sorry for all the questions, but i knew there was someone that would help me. :)

candy


Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:47 pm
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Post Re: Why
Candy, one would mention that we all start off as novices, and the more books you read and more discussions you participate in here will increase your knowledge. It is not a case of "being equal" with us. We are learning new things here!

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Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:08 pm
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Post Re: Why
I dont think you understand what i was trying to say when i said equal, i was trying to say. the knowledge that everyone has, that one day i want to be there as well, and you are correct, the more you read the more you know, and one day, i shall be there. :)

candy


Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:34 pm
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Post Re: Why
I understood your perfectly, Candy. I am not sure why you keep misunderstanding me.

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Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:53 am
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Post Re: Why
Hi Candy and welcome! To try to help out a little - Madame Elizabeth was the King's sister, which in itself was enough of a reason for the Revolutionaries to want to execute her. All the royalty were deemed worthy of death. Marie Therese survived partly because they didn't know what to do with her. As different factions came into power during the revolution, things changed as did the treatment of the royal fmily.
Marie Antoinette was very charitable and concerned with the suffering of people and her being Austrian was a strike against her - it was a rallying point for people to spew their general dislike of Austrians. Remember the marriage of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette was an alliance between the countries.
Relations between them (the countries) had not been great. In the same manner as today, gossip and lies can cause alot of damage to the intended target. On a national level, these lies and slander caused so much damage it is almost unbelievable! Take a look at some of the pamphlets that were circulated and the filth contained in them, it is horrible! I do not know why Marie Antoinette ignored this - or maybe she didn't really realize how far this all had gone (of course until it was too late). There is no proof of an actual "affair" between Axel Fersen and Marie Antoinette, but there was a definite attraction and special friendship they shared.
Louis XVI did see his family the night before his exection, but it was so painful for them all, that he opted to not see them the morning of his exection as he had said he would. He needed to be able to face his exection.
Hope this helped a little - a really easy read on Marie Antoinette is "To the Scaffold" by Carolly Erickson. For some basic info - tons of other great books too, but the one I suggested is easy.


Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:38 pm
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Post Re: Why
Marie Antoinette was interested in charitable causes, but she did not see clearly what the actual needs of the people were and she had a constant failure to consider how her own actions appeared to the populace who did not have her wealth to benefit from. So while she did give some (not enough, usually) help to the people, she also stirred up a great deal of resentment with her expensive wardrobe and lavish parties. Politics didn't really interest her until it was too late. She was not mean or evil, but for most of her life she failed to see the problems that no one really bothered to show her. She was sheltered, and she came off looking selfish. Many of the people disliked her for that.


Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:55 pm
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Post Re: Why
Rosieface wrote:
Marie Antoinette was interested in charitable causes, but she did not see clearly what the actual needs of the people were and she had a constant failure to consider how her own actions appeared to the populace who did not have her wealth to benefit from. So while she did give some (not enough, usually) help to the people, she also stirred up a great deal of resentment with her expensive wardrobe and lavish parties. Politics didn't really interest her until it was too late. She was not mean or evil, but for most of her life she failed to see the problems that no one really bothered to show her. She was sheltered, and she came off looking selfish. Many of the people disliked her for that.


I came across this quote from the Letters of Marie-Antoinette to her mother, written when she was 21 years old. She was not as uninterested in politics as most people seem to think. Marie-Antoinette wrote:
http://teaattrianon.blogspot.com/2008/1 ... itics.html
Quote:
Although I have very little experience of politics, I cannot help being worried about what is happening everywhere in Europe. It would be very terrible if the Turks and the Russians went back to war. At least here I am very sure they want to keep the peace. If my brother had come, I think, like my dear Mama, that his acquaintance with the King would have been very useful for the general good and quiet. It would be the greatest good fortune if these two sovereigns, who are so close to me, could trust each other, they could settle many things together and would be protected from the lack of skill and the personal interests of their ministers.

The Grand Almoner is at death's door; Prince Louis [de Rohan] will replace him in that office. I am really annoyed by this, and it will be much against his own inclination that the King will appoint him; but two years ago he allowed himself to be surprised by M. de Soubise and Mme de Marsan into a half promise, which they converted into a full one by thanking him, and which they have just now used to the full. If he [Rohan] behaves as he always did, we will have many intrigues.(~from Secrets of Marie Antoinette: A Collection of Letters, edited by Olivier Bernier. New York: Fromm International, 1986, pp. 211-212)

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Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:12 pm
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Post Re: Why
Lilly wrote:
Hi Candy and welcome! To try to help out a little - Madame Elizabeth was the King's sister, which in itself was enough of a reason for the Revolutionaries to want to execute her. All the royalty were deemed worthy of death. Marie Therese survived partly because they didn't know what to do with her. As different factions came into power during the revolution, things changed as did the treatment of the royal fmily.
Marie Antoinette was very charitable and concerned with the suffering of people and her being Austrian was a strike against her - it was a rallying point for people to spew their general dislike of Austrians. Remember the marriage of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette was an alliance between the countries.
Relations between them (the countries) had not been great. In the same manner as today, gossip and lies can cause alot of damage to the intended target. On a national level, these lies and slander caused so much damage it is almost unbelievable! Take a look at some of the pamphlets that were circulated and the filth contained in them, it is horrible! I do not know why Marie Antoinette ignored this - or maybe she didn't really realize how far this all had gone (of course until it was too late). There is no proof of an actual "affair" between Axel Fersen and Marie Antoinette, but there was a definite attraction and special friendship they shared.
Louis XVI did see his family the night before his exection, but it was so painful for them all, that he opted to not see them the morning of his exection as he had said he would. He needed to be able to face his exection.
Hope this helped a little - a really easy read on Marie Antoinette is "To the Scaffold" by Carolly Erickson. For some basic info - tons of other great books too, but the one I suggested is easy.


This is an excellent summary, Lilly. Instead of Erickson's book, though, I would recommend Desmond Seward's bio of Marie-Antoinette as a good starter book. (Erickson I just don't trust since that "Hidden Diary" fiasco.)

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Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:15 pm
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