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Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
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Author:  Lilly [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

The first picture is beautiful - she looks alot like Marie-Antoinette.
The second picture, although older, is strikingly different - The hair texture and color and the facial features are not the same. What's going on here???

Author:  DĂ©licate fleur [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

This might make me appear very stupid, but is that first portrait really Madame Royale in her youth?? It looks like a young adult, or even Madame Elisabeth or Le Brun herself? I am a bit confused, for I have never seen a picture like that atttributed to MTC. :oops:

Author:  Lilly [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

You know, I thought the same thing....and had a little doubt as to whether this was MTC by Vigee Le Brun as it says. I should have done a little checking before I posted it. In any event, here's two familiar pictures, one very young and the one in her teens. It easily appears to be the same girl. I just don't see how she ended up looking like the older MTC picture.

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Author:  Lilly [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

the younger one

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Author:  Ludy [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

About the rape, it is quite possible that she went through such an ordeal when she was left alone in the Temple. But unless she was pregnant, I don't see the need for such a substitution, given that the marriage with duc d'Angoulème was a political one, very important for symbolical reasons. People were less sentimental back then and had no understanding of depression or psychological shock. I don't think they would have had qualms "forcing" her into this marriage, or, had she been so reluctant, send her to a covent, which was quite common for princesses that were not fit for marriage.

As far as her appearance is concerned, I do not think that the "two MTC" were that different. The same facial features can be observed on all the portraits of her, and in Vienna, Fersen already noticed that she did not look like her mother at all, to his great disappointment (but did the substitution already occur then ?). And her behaviour later on might be explained by nervous shock, accentuated by an unhappy marriage.

Author:  Ludy [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

Lilly wrote:
You know, I thought the same thing....and had a little doubt as to whether this was MTC by Vigee Le Brun as it says. I should have done a little checking before I posted it. In any event, here's two familiar pictures, one very young and the one in her teens. It easily appears to be the same girl. I just don't see how she ended up looking like the older MTC picture.


This is a stunning portrait !

Author:  baron de batz [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

The first of your two portaits Lilly is Madame Elizabeth.

I think that if MTC did end up being substituted, it is probably because she was seen as unfit for the court because of certain "events" in the Temple. I think her mother, who remained in contact with her childhood friend, the Princess of Hesse Darmstadt, whose land the Countess of Darkness lived on, may well have thought up a contingency plan for her daughter's future, if ever the latter found herself alone and released from captivity.

Author:  Lilly [ Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

Thanks, Baron! Glad to know who that really is, she is beautiful in this portrait. I do think she resembles MA somewhat.

Author:  Natalia [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

baron de batz wrote:
The first of your two portaits Lilly is Madame Elizabeth.

I think that if MTC did end up being substituted, it is probably because she was seen as unfit for the court because of certain "events" in the Temple. I think her mother, who remained in contact with her childhood friend, the Princess of Hesse Darmstadt, whose land the Countess of Darkness lived on, may well have thought up a contingency plan for her daughter's future, if ever the latter found herself alone and released from captivity.


I have always found the Dark Countess very intresting. I read somewere that a professor was to DNA test her remains (the interview was from 2002 I think), but I guess nothing happend?
One should really write a letter to some DNA company and beg them to to a test.

Author:  Monsieur Etiquette [ Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

Just to bring up the question of whether Antoinette favoured her sons or not...

Let's not forget, "A son would have been the son of France... [but] you shall be mine; you shall have my undivided care; you will share all my happiness and you will alleviate my sufferings..."

And on top of that, all she gave up to devote herself to being a mother. I think she really matured after Marie Therese was born, in many ways finding a 'better' way to express herself. And of course none of us would doubt her devotion as a mother.

Author:  Monsieur Etiquette [ Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

I think, actually, at least in the time during and after the Revolution, having endured so much pain and suffering, it is impossible to ignore the fact that she would have grown rather emotionless - she had to, to remain strong. She herself remained speechless for one whole year.

But what encapsulates her true appreciation for her family was her reaction when told of the fate of her family members by Chanterenne. Doubtless, there was grief for the other members of her family, but certainly, there was grief for her mother. She, I think, in those long and quiet moments of solitude in the Temple, pondered and matured in her thinking, as she aged to seventeen in her cell. After all, on her wall, she had written, "Live, my good mother! Whom I love well, but of whom I can hear no tidings!"

Author:  baron de batz [ Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

There is no doubt in my mind that MTC loved her mother, and that MA had no preference between the two children. After all MA's last letter shows that level headed and poignant love through the instructions she leaves to her sister in law about the children.

Author:  Anouk [ Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

It is true, there is no doubt about Marie-Therese loved MA and vice versa - but sometimes I wonder how would MA have reacted in case the revolutionaries had taken Madame Royale instead of Louis-Charles.... I think she would have fought for her daughter but Marie-Therese's absence wouldn't have touched her as much as the separation of his son. Maybe I am wrong but I think she hanged on LC much more than on MTC. But it just an intuition for me.

Author:  Monsieur Etiquette [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

I think, too, that perhaps she felt Therese a lot stronger than Louis, for various reasons - in looking at accounts of her children being separated one after the other at the Temple prison, she appears to be more practical and frank with Therese than with Louis.

Author:  baron de batz [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

I think there is no emotional preference as a mother, but as a woman brought up with such a strong idea of royalty, there is possibly a state influenced preference.

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