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Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
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Author:  Lilly [ Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

When considering MA's attitude/behavior toward her children, it's important to consider their ages. When the Royal family was moved from Versailles to Paris - MTC was 11 (almost) and the Dauphin was 4 years old.
As a parent, I can tell you - it likely bought MA the most distress that the children were forced to witness this violence. A Mother's first concern in these circumstances would be to protect her children. At the age of 4, little boys are very sweet and loving, especially to their mothers. Being her baby - she would have had a special relationship with him. MTC, being her first child would also have a very special relationship with MA. Loved exactly the same, but in different ways. Any parent can tell you this.
As MTC progressed into her early teens, Louis-Charles was still a little boy. MTC was more mature and not as needy in the same way as a little boy. MA also had more reason to be concerened for the safety of her son. He was the heir to the throne. When LC was removed from MA at the Temple - she figured they were going to harm him. Had it not been for MTC, I believe MA would have made them kill her rather than hand the child over. I know you would have to kill me to take my son from me, BUT - they threatened to kill MTC too and she had to give in. She was faced with a heartbreaking situation, no Mother can imagine this! I think that the only reason she didn't completely lose her mind when Louis-Charles was taken from her was that she still had MTC.
Overall, she loved neither of them the less, they were just of such different ages that their needs were different.

Author:  Monsieur Etiquette [ Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

Precisely, Lilly!

As I said, it may have seemed this way because Louis Charles was more dependent on her, and younger too, at that time. Plus, the fact that he is a Dauphin necessitates the idea of attention needing to be given to him.

All the same, remember this: when Marie-Therese was born, Louis and Marie both agreed to love her as equally as her future son (so they anticipated); that she would not be overlooked; that they would not have any favourites.

Author:  baron de batz [ Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

We all agree! :blob7:

Author:  Ludy [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

Still,as far as I know, Marie-Thérèse herself felt jealous. And she was very close to Elizabeth. I think before the Temple, there was a kind of competition between the two women, and that involved children as well.

Marie-Antoinette wrote a very famous later about upbringing. She speaks essentially about her son and very little about her daughter.

It was a tradition back then to devote more attention to male children. Marie-Antoinette took better care of her daughter than previous queens did, such as Marie Leczinska, who sent three of them in monastry before they were allowed to go back to Versailles. But Marie-Antoinette did also look after the dauphins' upbringing more seriously and closely.

Author:  Anouk [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

I also think the same way, apart from the rivalry between MA and Élisabeth which I've never heard of.

Author:  Ludy [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

Anouk wrote:
I also think the same way, apart from the rivalry between MA and Élisabeth which I've never heard of.


I just think that before the Temple, and especially in the Tuileries, Elisabeth competed with Marie-Antoinette's influence over Louis XVI. She also, I think, disapproved of Marie-Antoinette's behaviour during her frivolous years. She was very religious.

Author:  Anouk [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

I don't know - she was very young at the time of MA's frivolous years. There were almost 10 years difference of age between the two ladies.
Later, in the Tuileries, MA showed how to handle political affairs and I just can't imagine how competent could be Madame Élisabeth in these matters... I think she wasn't. And also, she seemed too faint to influence the king. After all I think she was not "competitive" :)

Author:  Lilly [ Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

Ludy wrote:
Still,as far as I know, Marie-Thérèse herself felt jealous. And she was very close to Elizabeth. I think before the Temple, there was a kind of competition between the two women, and that involved children as well.

Are these things you "think" or things you "know" to be true? How did MTC feel jealous? What was this "competition" between MA and Madame Elizabeth?

Ludy wrote:
But Marie-Antoinette did also look after the dauphins' upbringing more seriously and closely.

Really? When? Louis-Charles wasn't even the Dauphin until his sick brother died, in the summer of 1789. Which, by the way was just months before the Royal family were taken prisoners. Louis Charles was 4 when they were first taken in Oct.1789 - he only lived to be 10. He was removed from MA's care in 1793 and died in 1795. Before his removal, the family was in the Temple, and the Tuilleries before that. It is well documented that both the children were given lessons while incaptivity and there is no evidence that one was paid any more or less attention than the other. The main focus MA would have had on her children would have been for their safety. How could MA "look after the Dauphin's upbringing more seriously and closely" - under the circumstances the family was experiencing? Seriously doubtful.

Author:  Ludy [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

MTC felt jealous, because her mother was somewhat reserved with her. . Bertière says it I think in her chapter devoted to children.


I think it was a tradition back then to devote more attention to male children, and it's still the case in many families.

About the competition, I think Bordonove must have stated it. It must be him - he did not hold Elisabeth in high esteem. Bertière also did.


Not to mention MTC behaviour towards her mother when she became Duchesse of Angoulème.

Author:  Monsieur Etiquette [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

I'm sorry, I can't say I agree. The word 'competition' is, in any case, quite the wrong word to use, even if it were true that Elizabeth grew fonder of Louis or wanted to have more of a position with her nephew.

Author:  Ludy [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

Monsieur Etiquette wrote:
I'm sorry, I can't say I agree. The word 'competition' is, in any case, quite the wrong word to use, even if it were true that Elizabeth grew fonder of Louis or wanted to have more of a position with her nephew.


It's fine with me ! I don't see why I should not use the word "competition".

Author:  baron de batz [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

You're free to use it and others are free to disagree with its' pertinence! :)

Author:  Lilly [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

Can you specifically source what you say? "I think Bertiere says it" "I think Bordonove must have stated it" is way too vague. Where are these things stated? What book, what pages?
Otherwise, it is an opinion - with nothing to back it up.

Ludy wrote:
Not to mention MTC behaviour towards her mother when she became Duchesse of Angoulème.

Obviously, her mother was dead - what of her behavior?

Author:  Lilly [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

Ludy wrote:
But Marie-Antoinette did also look after the dauphins' upbringing more seriously and closely.

Really? When? Louis-Charles wasn't even the Dauphin until his sick brother died, in the summer of 1789. Which, by the way was just months before the Royal family were taken prisoners. Louis Charles was 4 when they were first taken in Oct.1789 - he only lived to be 10. He was removed from MA's care in 1793 and died in 1795. Before his removal, the family was in the Temple, and the Tuilleries before that. It is well documented that both the children were given lessons while incaptivity and there is no evidence that one was paid any more or less attention than the other. The main focus MA would have had on her children would have been for their safety. How could MA "look after the Dauphin's upbringing more seriously and closely" - under the circumstances the family was experiencing? Seriously doubtful.[/quote]

Author:  Monsieur Etiquette [ Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

It should be noted that Antoinette said, in her letter to Elizabeth:

Quote:
I know how much my little boy must have made you suffer. Forgive him, my dear sister, remember how young he is, and how easy it is to make a child say whatever one wants, to put words one doesn't understand in his words . . . and also [my love] to my dear children.

One can clearly see no sense of competition, particularly in terms of the children (who are mentioned equally); it can be also suggested that Antoinette's entrusting of the children to Elizabeth represents a passing-on of maternal duty and love, rather than out of a last-minute, forced decision.

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