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Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
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Author:  Colette [ Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

I read somewhere that Madame Royale "wouldn't of minded" if Marie Antoinette died. I think she was about 8 when she said this. Did she dislike Marie Antoinette because she didn't spoil her as Louis did, or did she just simply not like her mother?

Author:  Artois [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

Hi Colette:

In my readings I've never read that Madame Royale hated her mother. I think that 'mousseline la serieuse', Marie Antoinette's nickname for her daughter (loosely translated 'the serious fabric') took her position at court very seriously from an early age. She was every inch a priness and would not let you forget it. Combine that with a father who spoiled her and a mother who insisted on as normal life as possible and you have a child who of course favored the father; this doesn't mean that she hated her mother. Louis XVI gave her anything she wanted. Marie Antoinette, on the other hand, believed in a stricter upbringing. She did, for example, provide her daughter with playmates from the surrouding villages, and withheld Christmas presents explaining that poor children were suffering with the cold and lack of warm clothes and food, and the money for presents had been donated to the poor. She quickly learned to go to 'paparoi', not 'mamareine', if she wanted something.

I think that as she grew and matured, Marie-Therese Charlotte understood her mother's intentions and realized the nobility and generosity intent of her actions.

Author:  Colette [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

Thanks for the information Artois, it helped clear things up a lot for me. When I read that Marie Therese hated her mother I didn't really think that could be true, but I guess she didn't hate her she just liked her father more. And of course when mom says no, ask dad! :wink:

Author:  Délicate fleur [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

I think this was painfully true for my Mum when I was growing up! Daddy's girl! :roll: :lol:

Author:  jimcheval [ Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

Artois wrote:
I think that 'mousseline la serieuse', Marie Antoinette's nickname for her daughter (loosely translated 'the serious fabric') took her position at court very seriously from an early age.

A slightly more precise - and I think evocative - translation would be "muslin the serious". It was the name of a very serious - and mute? - character in a fairy tale.

Mme R. was a charming little prig, by all accounts. You can read an English bio here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Gw7SAA ... 22&f=false

It includes this telling anecdote from Vigee LeBrun:
Quote:
The Queen, unlike most parents, was not blind to her daughter's faults, but endeavoured to correct them. She was much disquieted by her tendency to haughtiness. In order to combat this too exalted idea of her own importance, Marie - Antoinette reformed the household l and diminished the number of Madame's servants. She also chose for her a little companion of humble birth, who was to be the Princess's own charge, and was to share with her the good things of life. " I have myself seen the Queen," writes a woman of distinguished attainments, " superintending the six-year-old Madame's meal, in company with a little peasant whom Madame had to look after and serve first, the Queen saying, ' You must do the honours.' "

Though I can't vouch for its accuracy overall.

It's possible that her generally uncongenial nature - or equanimity, by some lights - made her seem unpleasant to her mother in some eyes. I believe she is the princess of whom I read that when returned emigres would later try to recall their sorrows and those of her family, she would respond frostily.

Among other things, she froze at the word "scaffold" and avoided a woman who had the misfortune to use the word in saying how her father had died.

It does not seem, overall, she improved with age. The later part of the biography is filled with specific illustrations of this point:

Quote:
But she was utterly ignorant of the art of pleasing; her surly manner and rough voice were little calculated to inspire devotion, and she had the misfortune to spoil in the uttering any little pleasantry she attempted.


To the point that, in browsing through some of these incidents, I wonder if she didn't have a touch of Asperger's. Her lack of social skills was that extreme.

It didn't help that she had an arranged marriage to the Duke d'Angouleme who apparently made Louis XVI look positively virile.

Author:  princesse [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

[quote="Artois"]Hi Colette:

In my readings I've never read that Madame Royale hated her mother.
quote


I've read that one time, MA had a little accident, maybe she felt down or something like this. Someone tells to madamde royale" The queen could be dead now" and she answered " It doesn't matter". This was the fact.
I know that daughter with a mother who is the real boss of the family doesn't agree with this situation and fight an invisible battle against the other woman of the family. :angel1:

Author:  baron de batz [ Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

Not exactly like that. She was a child, even if a somewhat unusual one, its' true. She qualified what she said by saying that if MA was dead there would be no-one then to tell her to do things. Typically brutal childish logic.

Author:  Ludy [ Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

I don't think she exactly hated her. She resented that her mother forced her (in order to make her less arrogant) to share her belongings with underprivileged children, as well as made her play with them and serve them. Possibly, her reluctance was encouraged by Elizabeth and the aunts. She also felt envious that her mother so obviously preferred her sons, who were more affectionate and less stiff than her.

I think her demeanour later on was also meant to avoid her mother's trouble : Marie-Thérèse notably shrank from sticking to fashion and taking care of herself. This implies that in a way, she deemed her mother partially responsible for her fate.

Author:  Lilly [ Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

Is there a child that ever lived who at some time didn't "hate" one parent or the other? Kids are not always happy with the decisions of adults, and will temproarily be angry because they don't get their way.
Haven't any of you ever said "Oh, I hate her!" because your Mom wouldn't let you do something or have something?
It seems ridiculous to hold children responsible for silly words spoken in moments of discontent. They are children, that's what children do.

Author:  Anouk [ Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

So true Lilly!

At the same time there is no child ever lived who didn't love his parents at all. Not even if the child says "I hate you". Because these words always come from the pain that children feel when their parents do badly by them.

Author:  Lilly [ Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

Ludy wrote:
I don't think she exactly hated her. She resented that her mother forced her (in order to make her less arrogant) to share her belongings with underprivileged children, as well as made her play with them and serve them. Possibly, her reluctance was encouraged by Elizabeth and the aunts. She also felt envious that her mother so obviously preferred her sons, who were more affectionate and less stiff than her.

I think her demeanour later on was also meant to avoid her mother's trouble : Marie-Thérèse notably shrank from sticking to fashion and taking care of herself. This implies that in a way, she deemed her mother partially responsible for her fate.


Not so sure about this. It sounds cruel. Marie-Therese was not "forced" to play with other children, she was exposed to children who had less than she did. All children need to learn to share. Her Mother was teaching her compassion. I do not believe that Marie Antoinette was the kind of Mother who "forced" Marie-Therese into learning things, it was the Revolutionaries who did that. I also do not think that MA "so obviously" preferred her sons, nor that Marie-Therese deemed MA partially responsible for her fate.

Author:  Ludy [ Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

English is not my mother tongue. I was merely saying that MA made her daughter do this. I also think this was the right thing to do, but Marie-Thérèse herself resented it as a child. She especially hated to share her belongings. I am not judging, just stating facts. Yes, and she was very jealous that Marie-Antoinette preferred her sons : this is very obvious when you see how they behaved in the Temple. Marie Thérèse grew actually far closer to Elisabeth, and there was a kind of rivalry between Elisabeth and MA. I think that Marie-Thérèse was very influenced by Elisabeth, and grew very judgemental about her mother. But I do think she loved her.

In her letter, MA is far more emotional about her son than about her daughter. I am not claiming that she did not love Marie-Thérèse, by the way.

Author:  Lilly [ Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

I haven't read these things. Would you mind sharing where you found these facts? Thanks!

Author:  Ludy [ Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

Mainly :

André Castelot, Madame Royale

Simone Berthière, Marie-Antoinette, l'insoumise

Antonia Fraser, Marie-Antoinette, a journey

Georges Bordonove, Louis XVII et l'énigme du temple

Madame de Tourzel, Mémoires (as far as I remember, the one stating that MA was far closer to her sons, and Marie-Thérèse far closer to her father)



I am afraid that is all I can remember.

Author:  Ludy [ Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?

By the way, I understand that it sounds very shocking (and not very politically correct) that a mother may prefer one of her children, but I do think it does happen on a regular basis. On one side there is the love you "owe" to one member of your family, on the other the "kinship" you have or haven't with him/her. You love your parents because they are your parents, you are attached to them. But this does not mean that you share their values and interests in life, or approve of their behaviour. I think this happens is lots of families.

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