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 I never knew the suffering of her children 
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Post I never knew the suffering of her children
After seeing the movie last week, I found myself researching what happened to her children after they were taken away. I saw the recent film with a mother's group, and many of us had to get up and leave during the last scenes involving the children crying. I never knew the suffering that they underwent, especially her son. I am so saddened as a mother, and cannot imagine the pain she edured watching her son and daughter suffer. Was there any restitution in all of it? Was Antione Simone exucuted for his crimes? He seemed to be nothing more than a criminal child abuser and molester.
Marie Terese's quote about forgiving those who hurt her and her family, reminds me of Anne Frank's last words. If I could say anything to Marie Antionette and her children, I would impart my sorrow for thier loss, and suffering, and wish them love and peace in their next lives.
No matter how many children were suffering while they were clueless, no child or mother should have had that treatment. Her daughter's memoirs gave me such respect for her, and her strength to speak about her ordeal as if she were a soldier.
If anyone has any information, please let me know.


Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:21 am
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Yes the family of Marie-Antoinette was not spoiled by the events...
Louis-Charles probably died in the prison of the Temple in 1795, given up in his cell, because of a tuberculosis of the bones.
Marie-Thérèse was locked up in the prison of the Temple until the end of 1795, during 2 years, only. She was released at the end of 1795 then exiled in Austria. She died in 1851, her life was a succession of hopes, exiles, and voyages through Europe. :?

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Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:11 am
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I am pretty sure that Simon was guillotined during the Revolution. Later, in 1814, Marie-Therese went to visit his Widow, Madame Simon, at the hospital Des Incurables in Paris to find out more details of what happened to her brother. She went incognito. Madame Simon was telling the story of how her husband took the Dauphin out of the Temple and he was replaced by another boy. She may have been telling this story to assauge her feelings of guilt, although she kept repeating the story even as she was dying. She also claimed the the Dauphin visited her in 1802. The nuns who took care of her did not think she was insane or delusional.

After Marie-Therese visited her, the police found out and threatened Madame Simon, and she was silent about the Dauphin until her deathbed confession.

Deborah Cadbury's "The LOst King of France" has much more information about all this as well as Elena Maria Vidal's novel "Madame Royale."

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Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:21 pm
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I felt very miserable and upset when I learnt about what happened to her children too Karbeth. I know that for one, it is bad that any child in this world is abused, but for children who have never known better being royal. Imagine her daughter and especially her son, Louis-Charles, his whole life protected and sheltered as not only a royal who would one day be the King of France but by a loving mother and father, then one day it is all taken away from him and he is stuck in a dingey, dirty cell to die. That poor little boy. And poor Maria-Therese, no wonder she never had children, the pain she must have felt her whole life from what happened to her family... I mean it nearly brings me to tears thinking about it.

I hope that man who did those things to him rots in hell for what he did. Infact I hope justice was brought either in this life or the next for everyone who did wrong to MA and her family.

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Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:56 pm
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I am so curious as to the life of Marie Therese. She is the one who captivates me the most of all the family members. Also, to think of living the rest of her life with this huge horrible mystery along with all the horrible realities she experienced is unimaginable...


Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:05 am
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Yes Elisabeth me also I am interested much in Marie-Thérèse.
Her mysterious character and her psychology are astonishing.
Monique de Huertas wrote a very good book on the assumption of her substitution in 1796, which lets believe that the Duchess of Angoulème was not her.
This mystery which surrounds this girl is really justifying!

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Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:54 am
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Now, my dear, the duchesse d'Angouleme was acknowledged by all of her surviving relatives and all the old retainers who had known her as a child, including Madame de Tourzel's daughter Pauline de Bearn. Many had also known Ernestine as a small girl. Louis XVIII did not have enough money to buy the silence of so many people.

And it would have been tottally out of charcater for Louis XVI to have had an illegitimate child....

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Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:05 pm
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Indeed Therese I agrees it is not very probable... but the physical changes or emotional tastes of the Duchess of Angoulème like these musical tastes are also very astonishing...
It is this mystery which interests me.

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Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:18 pm
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Darling Chou, I would be interested in the mystery, too, if I thought one existed. :wink: 8)

Of, course, her tastes may have changed during her formative years, especially if those years were spent in a prison.

What physical changes, dear, except those that occur as one grows up? I do not understand....

As for emotional changes, other than the severe ones that occured from being confined and having her family killed, in temperament she was very much the same as she had been as a child - Mousseline la serieuse - serious, quiet, devout, stubborn, and opinionated.

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Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:44 pm
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I think what I meant as living with the mystery was of not knowing what her brother's fate had been along with the other political maneuvers taking place. Mostly, though, after losing other siblings, her parents, friends etc. and not knowing if her brother had really passed or not...my heart aches for what that must have been like. However, did someone mention that she had a strong faith? If she chose spiritual growth as an answer maybe she did find peace in her life?


Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:54 pm
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Yes, I agree with you, Elizabeth. Yes, Madame Royale/the Duchesse d'Angouleme was intensely devout and helped to rebuild the Church in France after the ravages of the revolution, while investigating what became of her brother Louis XVII. The novel Madame Royale by Elena Maria Vidal tells of all this. In the end she found peace but she had to struggle with many demons.

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Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:59 pm
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Thank you Therese. If I may ask a couple more questions...what was her devotion to faith before the revolution? Also, did she have any strong connection with anyone closely associated with her parents after the revolution?


Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:06 pm
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[But I agree with you too...it is not very probable :?

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Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:17 pm
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My impression is that she was a fairly pious child and very close to her devout aunt, Madame Elisabeth. She was trained by her mother the queen to bring food to the poor, to wait upon the poor, a practice she kept up throughout her entire life. In prison, under her aunt's guidance she became very religious, reading everyday a book called, The day of a Christian

After being released from prison, she saw Madame de Tourzel (former governess) and her daughter Pauline. She was close to Pauline for most of her life. Pauline had been close to the royal family at the Tuileries and was a lady of high character. At one point she also saw Madame de Mackau, her had cared for her since infancy.

The princess went to Vienna, and then to Mitau in Courland (Latvia) where she stayed with her uncle, Louis XVIII and his wife. The Provences (Louis XVIII and Marie-Josephine) and Madame Royale's parents had not liked each other, but they knew each other well. They had all lived together at Versailles, after all. She married her cousin the duc d'Angouleme, whom she had played with at Trianon. Later, they all went to england, and the princess spent time with her uncle Artois and her other cousin the Duc de Berry. Neither Angouleme, Berry or their father Artois were known for their discretion or ability to keep secrets. For the rest of her life she resided near Artois and Angouleme.

Others who had known her parents and who Madame made part of her entourage later were Monsieur and Madame de Serent, Monsieur and Madame Hue, Madame de Narbonne, Madame d'Agoult, Madame de Damas, and the femme de chambre Madame Blanchard. There were many clergymen and even bishops who had been at Versailles whom Madame later knew, as well as cousins such as the Duc de Bourbon. Count Fersen came to visit her in England in 1809. and of course, that nasty Comte de Saint-Priest was always around....

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Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:33 pm
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How did her nose change? She always had the aquiline nose, like both her parents, although it became more accentuated as she matured. Her hair was always lovely, thick, long but like many blonds it darkened from gold into a light chestnut blond as she reached adulthood. Her lack of beauty was mostly due to her cold expression, and refusal to smile, especially in a crowd. But she could be very gracious to some people, even as an adult, especially to children and the poor. Those who suffer from post-traumatic stress syndrome as the princess did have fits of nervous hysteria, fainting. I suppose anyone who had been through what she had endured might have trouble being gracious - and then her awful marriage to Angouleme - that REALLY did her in....

She was never as graceful as her mother; she took after her papa.

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Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:46 pm
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