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Marie Therese Charlotte, Marie Antoinette's daughter
http://forum.marie-antoinette.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=46
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Author:  Marie-Antoinette [ Thu May 31, 2007 6:46 pm ]
Post subject: 

yes...Madame Royale :D

Author:  Arietta [ Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Therese and Post-traumatic stress

EM Vidal has this interesting post on Therese and her struggle with symptoms of post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). For those who've read Madame Royale, there are moments of stress for her even during everyday life.
http://teaattrianon.blogspot.com/2007/0 ... oyale.html

Author:  Marie-Antoinette [ Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:17 am ]
Post subject: 

Oh wow...thats very interesting!

Author:  Ludy [ Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Therese Charlotte, Marie Antoinette's daughter

I am convinced that she suffered from traumatic stress, although Castelot seems to explain her demeanour only by sexual frustration :roll: ... From what I read she was far from being a cold and harsh person : this harshness was often meant to avoid the pity everybody thought appropriate to display to her by being dry and arrogant. I am not sure this was only due to traumatic stress (although this parly explains it) but it was a well-pondered behaviour in order to be respectable and conserve her reputation. She was a courageous (the only man in the family, according to Napoleon), proud, and sincerly generous person. What is more, she had acquired a stronger political intelligence than her mother : she didn't mean to completely restore the Ancien Régime, contrary to Charles X for instance, because she was aware that it was impossible (who was one of the most stupid kings France ever had). It's a pity many historians merely considered her unappealing demeanour, she really deserves better than that, in my book.

Author:  Therese [ Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Therese Charlotte, Marie Antoinette's daughter

Ludy wrote:
I am convinced that she suffered from traumatic stress, although Castelot seems to explain her demeanour only by sexual frustration :roll: ... From what I read she was far from being a cold and harsh person : this harshness was often meant to avoid the pity everybody thought appropriate to display to her by being dry and arrogant. I am not sure this was only due to traumatic stress (although this parly explains it) but it was a well-pondered behaviour in order to be respectable and conserve her reputation. She was a courageous (the only man in the family, according to Napoleon), proud, and sincerly generous person. What is more, she had acquired a stronger political intelligence than her mother : she didn't mean to completely restore the Ancien Régime, contrary to Charles X for instance, because she was aware that it was impossible (who was one of the most stupid kings France ever had). It's a pity many historians merely considered her unappealing demeanour, she really deserves better than that, in my book.


I agree, Ludy, and thank you for your accurate assessment. People have no comprehension of what she suffered. And in her case, the sexual frustration may have been quite real, as opposed to what writers like Zweig claim about Marie-Antoinette, although it was certainly not the entire picture. But that combined with everything else was a burden on her soul. MA had her first child at age 22; MTC was continually deprived not only of normal marital relations but of motherhood, because of her pathetic husband. It was a terrible fate which she bore as well as she could. And her harsh demeanor assured that there was never any gossip about her; her reputation was sterling, at a very high price.

Author:  baron de batz [ Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Therese Charlotte, Marie Antoinette's daughter

If the restoration Marie-Thérèse was the same person as the young girl who left the Temple, then it is quite clear that it would have been impossible for her not to have been scarred psychologically by what she endured....imagine the circumstances: eye witness of the 6th October 1789 riots and of the guard's heads on the pikes, of the two vicious attacks on the Tuileries, of an unsuccessful escape attempt, of the murder of her parents, of the separation from her brother and then from her much loved aunt, left all alone, the only survivor, unsure of her own fate, without love, without support at a terribly fragile time in her life when an adolescent girl so needs her mother. It was a tribute to her that she didn't lose her mind. I have heard the story of graffiti she left in her cell..."Marie Thérèse is the most unhappy person on Earth".

Author:  Madame Amelia [ Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Therese Charlotte, Marie Antoinette's daughter

baron de batz wrote:
If the restoration Marie-Thérèse was the same person as the young girl who left the Temple, then it is quite clear that it would have been impossible for her not to have been scarred psychologically by what she endured....imagine the circumstances: eye witness of the 6th October 1789 riots and of the guard's heads on the pikes, of the two vicious attacks on the Tuileries, of an unsuccessful escape attempt, of the murder of her parents, of the separation from her brother and then from her much loved aunt, left all alone, the only survivor, unsure of her own fate, without love, without support at a terribly fragile time in her life when an adolescent girl so needs her mother. It was a tribute to her that she didn't lose her mind. I have heard the story of graffiti she left in her cell..."Marie Thérèse is the most unhappy person on Earth".


Indeed, just one of those awful things would be quite enough to scar one for life.

Author:  Hellou_Librorum [ Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Therese Charlotte, Marie Antoinette's daughter

Perhaps she was bitter about having her parents murdered, as baron de batz mentioned not only is it rough time for a teenage girl it was complete and utter chaos, one should at least have stability or security, she didn't have any of that. Or she did not want to grow too attached to people lest they be murdered also. :cry:

Author:  Monsieur Andre [ Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Therese Charlotte, Marie Antoinette's daughter

And we must not forget that for years she didn't even know that her mother, brother and aunt were dead. Can you imagine?

Author:  Hellou_Librorum [ Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Therese Charlotte, Marie Antoinette's daughter

I couldn't imagine, however after all that time I wouldn't believe they were alive though. :(

Author:  DreamersRose [ Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Therese Charlotte, Marie Antoinette's daughter

Well, I've read the book by Susan Nagle, and I think it's terrific. She does say that Louis XVI had a daughter that resembled him very much and was a couple of months older than Marie Therese. This daughter, called Ernestine, was raised by Louis and MA alongside Marie Therese. But the author does not think there was any switch, and she tracks down Ernestine to a life in the Paris suburbs after the Revolution. There have been longstanding myths about a Dark Countess being the true Marie Therese, but the author does not believe the Dark Countess, based on handwriting analysis, was Marie Therese. The portraits of the older Marie Therese also look very much like Louis XVI.

Author:  Christophe [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Therese Charlotte, Marie Antoinette's daughter

What?!! Louis XVI had a daughter older than Marie-Therese?? How is that possible? Please explain that statement. I have always understood that Marie-Therese was Louis and Antoinette's first child. And Louis never had a mistress, so how could he have a child named Ernestine?

Author:  DreamersRose [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Therese Charlotte, Marie Antoinette's daughter

Sorry, I could have been clearer. Louis didn't have a mistress exactly, but Nagle implies that he wanted to make sure he was fertile to ensure that any child Marie Antoinette might have was his. So he ran his tests on one of Marie's chambermaids, and it was successful. By raising the child along with Marie Therese, he was informally acknowledging that the child was his. The child was named something else, but was called Ernestine, from a novel popular at the time.

Author:  Délicate fleur [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Therese Charlotte, Marie Antoinette's daughter

Christophe, I would suggest you read this thread for further information: http://forum.marie-antoinette.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1236

Author:  Christophe [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Therese Charlotte, Marie Antoinette's daughter

Well, I don't believe it. It goes against everything that we know about Louis XVI.

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