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 a question about the movie with kirten dunst 
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
Pimprenelle wrote:
Dear Marija Vera, pedophiles have nothing to do with gays ! Pedophiles are sick people, who need to be cured. Gays are people who love persons of the same sex, and it all happens between consenting adults.


I was mentioning one episode of TV series where pedophiles wanted their rights by saying that their love is pure and that some children may accept it. They didn’t find themselves different than gays who also want freedom to enjoy in their love. One of their arguments was that some children are more mature, capable to understand and accept that kind of relationship and their love (?!?!) And that love doesn’t count ages, doesn’t have colour and rules. :shock:

Pimprenelle wrote:
Children would not be more in danger if adopted by a homosexual couple than if adopted by heterosexual couples.


I disagree. I don’t think a child could develop normally in that kind of marriage. Not only that it would find hard to understand its family but that would reflect on his understanding of relationships in general. Would society treat the same that child? It’s the best to consult the psychologist about this but I doubt that anyone would confirm your statement.

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Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:55 am
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
Marija Vera wrote:

Pimprenelle wrote:
Children would not be more in danger if adopted by a homosexual couple than if adopted by heterosexual couples.


I disagree. I don’t think a child could develop normally in that kind of marriage. Not only that it would find hard to understand its family but that would reflect on his understanding of relationships in general. Would society treat the same that child? It’s the best to consult the psychologist about this but I doubt that anyone would confirm your statement.


I agree. I also agree about the problems of putting up boundaries. I'm not saying that we ought to put boundaries always and in any case, I'm just saying the matter is problematic and not so simpke as it could seem at first glance.

Of course the disccussion about homosexuality today is very complex and interesting, but I won't add anything about it, otherwise we risk going too much off topic.
Back to our main theme:
Pimprenelle wrote:
So, were Provence or Shakespeare gay ? Passionate letters exist, that is a fact... But it is really relevant to wonder if they were gay ? Isn't it more interesting to wonder about love and friendship back then, and about the way people were free to express their feelings ?
Those words "gay", "straight" and those more clinical father Freud imagined are completely irrelevant, for societies and periods are different


Yes, this is exactly the point, think. We think in terms of "homosexual" and "heterosexual", but in different times these categories simply didn't exist, or didn't work.
For example, in Louis XVI's time, homosexuality was strongly condemned and for a devout catholic as he was it was just unthinkable to be homosexual, I think, or even to think of himself as homosexual. Of course one could always wonder what would have happened if Louis had lived in another situation, but that would be pointless, in the end, because what matters is that Louis lived in that period with those articular ideas and beliefs, and this is what we know of him; we have to stop here.
In his case, wondering about his homosexuality can derive only from the prejudice according to which, if a man doesn't show a particular interest in women, he must be gay. That could maybe (and I stress: maybe) have a sense in our societies, where we have quite a free relationship with sexuality, but in the 18th century, for a person with that personal story, we are not allowed to infer this.

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Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:21 pm
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
all this big talk has got poor old comte confused :[


Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:30 am
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
Which part Comte?

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Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:02 am
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
Comte de Provence wrote:
all this big talk has got poor old comte confused :[
:lol:

You’re right Rosalie, we shouldn’t go so off the topic and ruin the forum by discussing some modern issues not connected to our main interests: the 18th century and Marie Antoinette.

I will add something connected. While reading about Joseph II (brother of M.A.) I’ve found information that his first wife Isabella Maria of Parma was incredibly fond of his sister Marie Christine and there were certain suspicions that that was more than friendly love. On Wikipedia I have found the examples of her letters.

She and Joseph's sister Maria Christina quickly became best friends. Although they met every day, they also wrote letters to each other. In one letter she professes her love for Maria Christina: "I am writing you again, cruel sister, though I have only just left you. I cannot bear waiting to know my fate, and to learn whether you consider me a person worthy of your love, or whether you would like to throw me into the river.... I can think of nothing but that I am deeply in love. If I only knew why this is so, for you are so without mercy that one should not love you, but I cannot help myself.". In a different letter she wrote: "I am told that the day begins with God. I, however, begin the day by thinking of the object of my love, for I think of her incessantly."

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Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:11 pm
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
oh my, that was interesting.


Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:17 pm
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
Yes, this is really interesting. Does anyone know if this way of expressing one's feelings was somehow common in the epistular style of the 18th century and if expression like "falling in love" had the same meaning that they have today or not?

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Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:20 pm
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
i believe it would have been different.
with all the etiquette back then, you simply couldnt walk up to anyone and ask them on a date of sorts....


Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:08 pm
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
Rosalie wrote:
Yes, this is really interesting. Does anyone know if this way of expressing one's feelings was somehow common in the epistular style of the 18th century and if expression like "falling in love" had the same meaning that they have today or not?

By the letters from the epistolary novel written in the 18th century, Dangerous Liaisons, it was common to reveal for today theatrical feelings of devotion and admiring to a friend in letters. However this part of the letter seems more as a declaration of love. :?

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Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:36 pm
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
yes, thats what i was also thinking....


Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:44 pm
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
Yes it seems like say for Shakespeare in Twelfth Night Duke Orsino's "love" for Olivia is exaggerated. I'm assuming declarations of love/ devotion were theatrical and made known. Declaring love is bit more subtle. So I think.

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Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:39 pm
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
yes, nowadays anyway....


Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:40 pm
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
Or they think when their in love and it's just hormones. :D

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Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:16 am
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
In my opinion boundaries had made love that passionate and theatrical which we can see in the literature. Now being theatrical in love is considered lame. :?

In the 18th century presents were a way of declaration of love. When the love was secret than that objects were well hidden or the objects given were just the ordinary subjects on a first look.

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Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:11 pm
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
of course.


Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:10 am
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