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 a question about the movie with kirten dunst 
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
yeah, i never was suspicious.


Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:04 am
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
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I’ve never thought about the possibility that he was gay but I think there isn’t any indication that he actually was.

That's the point. When a man is interested in other men, there are indications he is, for instance in his correspondence. Historians are intitled to wonder about count Provence, for he wrote passionate letters to one of his friends. There are no proofs about Provence being gay, but, at least, some suspicions exist.

About Louis XVI, there is nothing, in my opinion... except that he built walls and made locks... and so on... with men. But could he do such handworks with women ? He was not interested in knitting and tapestries making !

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Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:01 am
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
Pimprenelle wrote:
Historians are intitled to wonder about count Provence

:lol:

Yes Pim and if any indication had existed about Louis XVI being gay, pamphlets would definitely see that as their main subject. As far as I know no one was dealing with it in the 18th century. :|

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Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:51 am
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
Yeah he was rather... asexual I think (until he discovered pleasure that MA gave him.)

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Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:36 pm
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
Yes, I also think so. There seems to be a category of people who are just not interested in sex, and I think Louis was something like that. Of course also his personal story (like marrying so young and his wife being also almost a child) could have affected him, especially on a psychological point of view.
I'm sure enough to say that he was not gay!

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Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:00 am
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
Not mention the debauched French court might have turned might have caused Louis XVI to ignore it or not have interest.

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Fri Jun 06, 2008 5:08 pm
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
yes, passionate letters to a friend though, this i also what they have attriubutewd to shakespeare with the earl of south hampton...


Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:07 pm
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
In my opinion, Comte de Provence, it is a matter of periods and societies. Freud had defined what he called "homosexuality" and considered a disease. Before this, feelings were not that clear.

Our nowadays criters also want us to put ourselves into small boxes and clearly define things that are not so clear, after all, since they concern human feelings.

So, were Provence or Shakespeare gay ? Passionate letters exist, that is a fact... But it is really relevant to wonder if they were gay ? Isn't it more interesting to wonder about love and friendship back then, and about the way people were free to express their feelings ?

Those words "gay", "straight" and those more clinical father Freud imagined are completely irrelevant, for societies and periods are different.

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Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:50 am
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
There were certain rumors that the great Caesar was gay or more correct bisexual. However in the Ancient Roman Empire that wasn’t defined as we would define it today and I agree with Pimprenelle. In that period that was not disease or something that is not normal, but something common in that society, sleeping with both men and women.
Pimprenelle wrote:
So, were Provence or Shakespeare gay ? Passionate letters exist, that is a fact... But it is really relevant to wonder if they were gay ? Isn't it more interesting to wonder about love and friendship back then, and about the way people were free to express their feelings ?

Well said.

Something is same as it was before – whenever you want to humiliate and ruin someone reputation or make him interesting for readers, just invent something about his private life and sexuality! If you are a man, you are never truly successful and famous until you read somewhere that you are gay. :?

I find Freud interesting and I like to read about him and his theories. Today in the media homosexuality is like a way of fashion (think about stereotype of a gay man from Will&Greis or Sex and the City) not something physical or psychological that requires some scientific explanation.

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Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:41 pm
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
I disagree. I think most society is accepting of homosexual people.
Comte de Provence wrote:
yes, passionate letters to a friend though, this i also what they have attriubutewd to shakespeare with the earl of south hampton...
. Yes Marja Vera that is true. Even though homosexuality was not encouraged, it was not a taboo. Having sex with both genders or one frequently was almost, normal.

Shakespeare is bisexual. If you read his sonnets he writes about a strong dislike about women.

I find homosexual people fascinating. I really do feel more respect for those who had to hide it because they would be shunned by society, or even killed.

Some men and women are very subtle about being homosexual, or they don't say it at all. Their mannerisms completely disguise, how they dress has nothing to do with being homosexual. It's the choice of being open about your sexuality, or keeping mum with it, which can get confused with clothing, i.e. men wearing pink, wearing designer clothes, because it is the medium they choose to express their sexuality.

Cary Grant, for instance who is at least bisexual; he did not flaunt that he was homosexual, ( even though it wasn't acceptable to society at the time, and he conformed) I think in today's world, if he or any other lesbian or homosexual's sexuality was accepted they would not announce it to the world because it would not be necessary to do so.

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Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:13 pm
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
There is a lot to say about your posts ! First of all, I agree that homosexuality and gender definitions are different things. One can be unhappy with his or her gender and heterosexual. Some men enjoy wearing female clothes without being gay.

Then there is the way our Occidental societies look at homosexuality. It is not considered completely normal yet but, fortunately, the situation is better than, for instance, in Cary Grant's time.

But of course, we must remember that there still exist so many countries around the world where loving a person of the same sex is considered a sin and punished by law. People die simply because they love each other...

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Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:50 pm
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
Yes it is so much better than it was before. Oddly enough the Japanese and the Chinese respected homosexuality, until westerners came in who condemned it, and soon they condemned it too.

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Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:01 pm
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
I am afraid that this all is more complex then “Let people love!”
I am for tolerance and if anything does not endanger anyone (physical and mentally) it is ok for me. However after watching one satiric episode of the South Park (where pedophiles where asking for their rights if they manage to find children that would accept and want relation like that) and hearing one politician who discussed the necessity of the state to set up boundaries, why it’s not good to legalize homosexual marriages and let them adopt children, I have realized how this matter is problematic.

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Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:37 pm
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
It's only a matter because there are too many conservative right wing extremists who just won't legalize marriage.

*sigh*

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Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:08 am
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Post Re: a question about the movie with kirten dunst
Dear Marija Vera, pedophiles have nothing to do with gays ! Pedophiles are sick people, who need to be cured. Gays are people who love persons of the same sex, and it all happens between consenting adults.

Children would not be more in danger if adopted by a homosexual couple than if adopted by heterosexual couples.

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Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:37 am
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