Marie Antoinette Online
  • FORUM
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:19 am



Reply to topic  [ 233 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ... 16  Next
 Reviews of the movie Marie Antoinette 
Author Message
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:48 pm
Posts: 467
Location: USA
Post 
Aurora wrote:
Moving around with the broom in a peasant costume, that is not what singers in general did, when performing in the late 18th century concert, so I do think it was meant to be an aria in the scene of one of her favourite plays.

The main problem was however, 1. that in the first place they used C'est mon ami, which is a plain song, not any aria or a stage piece. Why couldn't they choose then arias from Devin du Village, Sorcerier, even Barbier de Seville could have made huge associations to some people...and 2. why they didn't then choose to have C'est mon ami (if it was the only piece of music that they ever knew by Marie Antoinette) to be performed in a salon athmosphere in an intime concert, where it should have belonged.

In the film Jefferson in Paris for example there is more accurate scene with Troupe des Seigneurs performing a scene from Devin du Village and ladies dancing and singing around the May pool, from the finale.

I wasn't at all impressed by Dunst's voice, not when she was using present "folk-type" ordinary female range, and certainly not reflecting anything from the type of singing Marie Antoinette was learned to use.

See I know next to nothing abou how the performed back then. So it was inaccurate but I don't see how its mocking Marie Antoinette in any sort of way. Would it be nice had it been more accurate? Yes very much so.
Sorry I just liked this scene!

_________________
I was a queen, and you took away my crown; a wife, and you killed my husband; a mother, and you deprived me of my children. My blood alone remains: take it, but do not make me suffer long.


Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:46 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 9:36 am
Posts: 254
Post 
It's OK, of course nothing personal to you Monsieur Royale.

I only felt that this scene did not do justice to Marie Antoinette's talent, like they had their million-dollar-chance to show everybody how really talented she was and they lost it.


Last edited by Aurora on Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:56 am
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:54 am
Posts: 2040
Post 
Thank you for your wonderful explanations, Aurora ! Fascinating, as usually... a real pleasure to read you !

So this scene in "Jefferson" is from "le devin du village". The girls sing "nous n'irons plus au bois, les lauriers sont coupés, la belle que voilà ira les ramasser, entrez dans la danse, faites la révérence, chantez, dansez, embrassez qui vous voudrez!"

I could not resist quoting this in extenso, even if from memory... I hope I made no mistake, but, you know, I know it since my childhood, I dansed while singing it in the schoolyard... so, I am deeply moved...

I first thought this scene in "Jefferson" was just inaccurate, a kind of joke, to be taken second degree. But if this song really comes from a comedy Antoinette actually performed...

_________________
te voir encore me rappelle à la vie


Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:23 am
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 9:36 am
Posts: 254
Post 
Yes, I think so even that you can't actually hear the parts because there is a narrator-Jefferson explaining his views about Antoinette. Merchant-Ivory productions were carefully done, that is a part of their charm. They used for example in the garden dinner scene and opera parts musicians from Les Arts Florissants! And as I perhaps wrote earlier that Mme Cosway is playing her own edited music, parts from Five Italian folk songs (with Jan Walters, of course and not Greta playing).
I think that La Reine and her troupe are actually quite well portrayed in the theatre scene. The mocking element is from Jefferson speech, this la-la-laa refrain (perhaps) could be seen not so nice.
By the way this dancing around the Olive tree, May pole, Any sheperd's-stick is a very old tradition and take us back to the Medieval France, Picardie etc, and all the way to the pagan rituals of spring, midsummer, harvest celebration etc. I am going to be philosofical when writing about the music, but please forgive me, I have read yesterday evening Jean-Jacques Rousseau's Music Dictionnary (in facsimile edition!) and it fills the head now.


Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:49 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:54 am
Posts: 2040
Post 
Mrs Cosway composed music ? Amazing ! And this air she played on the harp ? It is so lovely... In Italian, isn't it ?

_________________
te voir encore me rappelle à la vie


Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:42 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 9:36 am
Posts: 254
Post 
Oh yes, for harp, harpsichord, voices. She was also a gifted miniature painter. And later in life she had an educational school for young girls. She is one of those early music women composers so forgotten and misunderstood and undervalued that I am so passionate about (like Sophia Corri-Dussek, Mme de Cléry, Maria Theresia von Paradis, Princesse Anna Amalia, Marianne von Martinez, Mme Bayon-Louis, Emilie Simons-Candeille etc.etc). It has been quite hard to research their works, because many of them have their music published under the name of their husbands(like Dussek)or not been printed at all, because nothing has changed, it never was or is a good PR to have a piece by a woman-composer so the publishers rejected them constantly or changed something. The music itself is usually good and with no stereotypical feminin touch that is associated to women-artists.


Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:02 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:54 am
Posts: 2040
Post 
Fascinating, dear ! Are these composers women all of the same century ?

Published under their husbands' names... like the great novelist Colette, who wrote the Claudine series and had to publish it under her husband's name ! Later, with the two names, Colette Willy. And, finally, her work was given back to her !

It is true that few women are known as composers... I only know Germaine Taillefer, a French composer who worked with Darius Milhaud. Hey ! I just made a reasearch : Milhaud is on wiki, Taillefer isn't.

Girls, there is a long way still... :wink:

_________________
te voir encore me rappelle à la vie


Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:25 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 9:36 am
Posts: 254
Post 
Yes, they all are from 18th century (my favourite one century and my focus always, yes I am weird..living in 21st century).
Tailleferre's Sonata for Harp is great!
Not so many women composers altoghether, but there are them from Hildegard von Bingen until Boulanger sisters Lili and Nadja, Sofia Gubaidulina, Amy Beach, etc. In Versailles in 17th century were also Elizabeth Jacquet de la Guerre and Antonia Bembo in King's favour. Women who could have a good education could have lessions in composing, but in general they were not encouraged publicly to perform their own material, so to become a composing woman, you have had to be either rich, with open-minded father/husband/lover/patron, born to a musician family or all the above, sometimes also in convent (limited material, only religious spiritual music).
The situation in folk music and ethnic was even worse, because of the general attitude to women and their constant working didn't let them much time to make any kind of music except singing lullabyes.


Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:17 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:54 am
Posts: 2040
Post 
In "Jefferson", they don't speak about Mrs Cosway composing. They just say "she is exquisite" or something... a so feminine quality, coping so well to silence, isn't it ? :wink:

But they refer to her as a painter. She explains that her husband does not like her to expose her own material. He is the one with the reputation.

I am like you, dear Aurora, my heart and my soul are floating somewhere in the XVIIIth century. But, concretely, I am relieved to live in the Europe of my century, for I never felt it was an handicap on any account to be a woman. I always was free to study and to do whatever I wanted. It is a wonderful freedom women of the past had not, and many women nowadays don't have yet...

_________________
te voir encore me rappelle à la vie


Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:59 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:48 pm
Posts: 467
Location: USA
Post 
Aurora wrote:
It's OK, of course nothing personal to you Monsieur Royale.

I only felt that this scene did not do justice to Marie Antoinette's talent, like they had their million-dollar-chance to show everybody how really talented she was and they lost it.

Although I agree that Coppola you know wasted an opportunity to help Marie Antoinette's reputation I think the film will do more good then bad. I mean people who find it intriguing will do their own research and discover the truth about Marie Antoinette. (although according to Caroline Webber's book she said supposedly MA had little signing talent.. :shock: Personally I doubt that but you never know.)

I've always been interested in finding out more about MA's Theatrical work at Trianon

_________________
I was a queen, and you took away my crown; a wife, and you killed my husband; a mother, and you deprived me of my children. My blood alone remains: take it, but do not make me suffer long.


Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:22 am
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 9:36 am
Posts: 254
Post 
I hope also that in the end this film is good for Marie Antoinette.

The common myth that if you are royal, rich and powerful, but untalented in arts is wrong, I think, concerning Marie Antoinette (Princesse Anna Amalia, Frederic II, Gustav III and Louis XIV(dance). All the society ladies and gentlemen had some kind of art tuition and music lessons at that time. And in Versailles (and Wien) she had a lesson almost every single day through many years with professional capable teachers. So technically many of the courtier-ladies were in fact quite good for example in playing an instrument.

The artistic interpretation is surely a different thing and separates amateurs from artists. But with Antoinette's talent, so mentioned, with the level of her practising, her passionate attitude with the music, I think, she did sing technically well and musically. I think that her ear had developped quite well and she sang in tune. Her voice (according to sources) was not strong, but that is a different thing, if you compare it to the Parisian Opéra singers. But it was perfect for the programmes she had and for her little theatre with this lovely wooden accoustic. And she had also acting lessions with Dazincourt.

In Versailles bookshop there is a lovely book about Hameau, which mentions some of her repertoire, like Sedaine, Barthe, Poinsinet, Rousseau, Boissy etc.etc.on stage, there are almost countless examples with the music works. I would like to know more about her theatre in St Cloud and that repertoire.
P.S. This all is little off-topic about the film, I hope you all understand.


Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:05 am
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:54 am
Posts: 2040
Post 
It is not off topic at all dear, since you pointed out the existence of this terrible myth in the movie : "royals always being untalented in arts". You consequently explained how it is wrong applied to Marie Antoinette, and unfair. And, coming from a professional, a true artist, your criticism really is a relief ! Thank you for sharing with us !

Once again, Monsieur Royale, I doubt this film would ever be a good thing for Marie Antoinette. Isn't it better not to speak about people than to portray them inaccurately ?

See on imdb, most of the people there feel sympathy for this young shallow girl, and don't want to know more about her real life, don't even wonder. They admire her just as they admire rock stars. She also died from being too glamorous, they think, and don't want to spoil their new myth by further researchs.

Actually, many scholars do a good job for the moment, they question history and try to find Marie Antoinette behind her muddy reputation. We are getting far from the revolution propaganda, thanks to them.

On the contrary, miss Coppola brought us years and years earlier, emphatizing on silly myths rather than on historical accuracy.

Frankly, who will, as you do, Monsieur Royal, as we all do here, being true passionates, read more about Marie Antoinette ?

_________________
te voir encore me rappelle à la vie


Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:07 am
Profile
Duc/Duchesse
Duc/Duchesse
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:21 pm
Posts: 195
Location: Eastern USA
Post 
Aurora wrote:
I hope also that in the end this film is good for Marie Antoinette.

The artistic interpretation is surely a different thing and separates amateurs from artists. But with Antoinette's talent, so mentioned, with the level of her practising, her passionate attitude with the music, I think, she did sing technically well and musically. I think that her ear had developped quite well and she sang in tune. Her voice (according to sources) was not strong, but that is a different thing, if you compare it to had also acting lessions with Dazincourt.
the Parisian Opéra singers. But it was perfect for the programmes she had and for her little theatre with this lovely wooden accoustic......


Yes, she was good, even, proficient, not a 'Maria Callas' , but she could sing, was trained and could "carry a tune" is why it was infuriating in this scene to hear her flat mouse like, off key voice.

That scene was terrible to me because I beleive in all sincerity IF the real Queen sounded that bad she never would have performed herself. She would never have had the ego, the vanity to inflict that on her friends.

_________________
Melly


Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:46 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:54 am
Posts: 2040
Post 
I could not agree with you more !

_________________
te voir encore me rappelle à la vie


Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:10 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:48 pm
Posts: 467
Location: USA
Post 
lol Was the I the only one who enjoyed this scene? :lol: Kirsten didn't sound bad. Like I said earlier my ear isn't exactly up to par anymore but it didn't come off as bad to me or any of my friends. And since i've had some expierence in this area and the majority of audience members will not I don't think if she was flat it'll be noticed at all...

Aurora, I agree about Marie Antoinette 's singing. Talent is a big part but passion is even more essential. As my voice teacher said "it is better to hit a false note and have it be true then to hit the right note and have it be false"
So I'm not very familiar with the Theatre in this era but what kind of plays did MA do? Did she do just musical's and opera's or did she do straight plays as well?
(As an Acting student that would be so cool to know! :wink: )
that book sounds great!

Pimpernelle, Well I agree that its best to be accurate but its a step foreward. I mean compare it to the revolutionary phamphlets of her day and its definately a more postive view. (except the Fersen scene cause that looks like its directly from a phamplet) but as far as accuracy goes you compare this to the 1938 "Marie Antoinette" film and this film is way more accurate. (the only thing that makes the old one worth seeing is Norma Shearer's performance. She is so amazing. She did so much research for the role to understand who MA was and it shows)

and as with most movies people will walk away not caring to do more research...but there is always that possible lone person in the audience who is fascinated and must find out more. And thats one more person who wouldn't know about her otherwise who will study and learn more about this amazing woman. thats what matters! Mainstream society will continue on its merry way but even if this film was accurate Mainstream Society probly still really wouldn't pay much attention. Such damage was done to MA's name that its possible that we will never be able to fully restore it :(

Yes this film did some awful things but I think it did some good things to.
Although I agree that Miss Coppola's lack of knowledge on the subject clearly shows in this film (its obvious she read the one book and thats all) but I think her intentions were good.

_________________
I was a queen, and you took away my crown; a wife, and you killed my husband; a mother, and you deprived me of my children. My blood alone remains: take it, but do not make me suffer long.


Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:07 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 233 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ... 16  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware for PTF.