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Favourite historical figures other than Marie Antoinette
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Author:  Ludy [ Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Favourite historical figures other than Marie Antoinette

baron de batz wrote:
In general French people are not positive about MA. Ignorance is a strong force everywhere, and people are too busy with their various occupations to read up about her or even think about her. The republic is firmly established here, and MA represents a bygone world. She is seen as aloof, arrogant and spendthrift...all the clichés together. Also as an airhead.


I think you should strive to be a bit more tolerant, dear Baron.) Just because one is not besotted with the Queen as we are does not mean that they are ignorant. And being prejudiced about something you have no knowledge of is natural. Besides, there are a handful of excellent reasons not to like Marie-Antoinette, and all of them do not boil down to clichés and prejudices.

About the failings you mentioned, they are certainly true, and whether or not Marie Antoinette should be blamed for them is all a matter of interpretation. I do not think that her extravagance is a mere cliché, and as far as arrogance is concerned, she indeed was very proud and thought herself better than anybody else just because she was an archduchess. Although I do not think that she was half as stupid as she's made out to be, she proved somewhat scatterbrained during the first part of her reign. She also was guilty of treason.

Author:  baron de batz [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Favourite historical figures other than Marie Antoinette

Now now Ludy don't accuse me wrongly of being anti French again!! I write quite clearly that ignorance is a strong force everywhere...not just in France! People here in my experience (and I'm sure in you'rs too) do not know much about MA, but that is their right, and why should they bother about a Queen dead over 200 years and belonging to a bygone age? As for her making mistakes, being proud, guilty of treason and sometimes a bit spendthrift, I agree ith you on all of those counts! However like so many other sovereigns or even mistresses, no different, and yet singled out!! Look at your favourite Mme de Montespan...she wasn't exactly a shrinking violet!

Author:  Ludy [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Favourite historical figures other than Marie Antoinette

Indeed, Baron, I can't help suspecting that you secretly run the French headquarter of the Economist. :lol:

Author:  baron de batz [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Favourite historical figures other than Marie Antoinette

You lost me completely there....maybe I'm just dumb! :lol:

Author:  Ludy [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Favourite historical figures other than Marie Antoinette

baron de batz wrote:
You lost me completely there....maybe I'm just dumb! :lol:


That was about your francophobia.)

Author:  baron de batz [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Favourite historical figures other than Marie Antoinette

But its francophilia not phobia....je vous adore les Français! :love:

Author:  Ludy [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Favourite historical figures other than Marie Antoinette

baron de batz wrote:
But its francophilia not phobia....je vous adore les Français! :love:


Enfin !

Author:  baron de batz [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Favourite historical figures other than Marie Antoinette

:)

Author:  Orleans87 [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Favourite historical figures other than Marie Antoinette

Lilly:

I read through my prior post again and noticed that I expressed myself wrongly in regard to "married within hours".
It could be because English is not my mother-language and so didn't notice this misquotation of mine.
I apologize. :oops:

I meant that Louis VI decided within hours, that Eleanor had to marry his son,
and that without considering the intention of the two parties involved.


Quote:
Her marriage to Henry was not a spur of the moment thing - she loved him and had been having an affair with him



When did I ever say that the marriage to Henry accrued spontaneously?

I questioned her motives, and listed those who came to my mind. However, I never said that with absolute certainty.
If the sole reason she married him was because she was in love, then that would contradict your assertion about her high intelligence.

I think she was more intelligent than just to be ruled by her passion.
Of course, love might have been a reason, but the most important one?!

She wasn't a naive maid anymore, but an adult woman with experience, charm and wit. Henry was a young man who,
with his own heritage and marriage to her, became the most powerful vassal in the Kingdom of the Franks.
With the English throne, he became even more powerful than Louis VII.

I think they were in love, but the attraction was certainly heightened by the prospects of power and protection.


Quote:
She may not have provided Louis VII with a male heir, but she provided Henry II with plenty of them!




When did I ever claim that she didn't have sons with Henry, or made it out to be bad, that she never gave a son to Louis?
I just stated the reason for her title and property being intact, after her divorce from him.
Maybe I just don't really know what you want me to tell with that. :?:


Quote:
Still, the lives of MA and Eleanor do not hold enough in common for me to make comparisons, other than very generally




You can make comparisons, just general ones, but I never said otherwise. :)

Author:  Orleans87 [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Favourite historical figures other than Marie Antoinette

Baron:


Quote:
People on Internet rarely get me angry and I have a hyperactive irony gland which helps me


That line made my day.
I'm relieved that you enjoyed my little joke and weren't offended.
I know some people who are really sensitive, so I just wanted to make that clear.

It is enviable, that you can remain that calm.
Even more so, because I have a discussion like that going on right now.(Not about Marie Antoinette though)
I'm not frustrated yet, but a bit surprised about some unshakable convictions, even though the truth laughs upon their face.

It gets annoying after a while, because the effort to be logical, neutral and truthful, is kind of waisted by certain responses.

The responses are short, what is not really a problem, but you get the feeling of being misunderstood.
Statement's that were explained thoroughly in prior posts are apparently ignored and so, Words are put into your mouth.


Hmm, it is tiring after a while.


I just can't understand people who think that some historical figures are so divine and without fault.
Some even build a fantasy-world around them. I just can't follow the motivation to do something like that.


Quote:
As for MA some people like to think of her as holier than thou and completely frigid



Wow, that is new. I knew about the "she was absolutely faithful" comments, but frigid??
Where did that come from??? :think:

Well, sometimes when you are younger and you read books or watch documentaries, you can form an opinion that is hard to shake off.
It seems comfortable for them because it reflects their own personality and morals.
To be confronted with other opinions and new information's, threatens to burst their comfort-bubble and that seems to be unbearable.


To come back to the 'Fersen-Antoinette-discussion",

Some people often bring up the "ideal of beauty was different" excuse, to make Louis automatically more attractive in Marie Antoinette's eyes.

I know that the ideals were changing from time to time, but not in the dimension that, for example,
a man like Quasimodo, could have ever been the ideal of beauty. :bs:

Author:  Orleans87 [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Favourite historical figures other than Marie Antoinette

Monsieur Etiquette:

Quote:
It's funny, you know - before March, if I recall correctly, this page on Wikipedia was the only one to feature the name 'Rosalie Lamorlière'. Only very recently, when I had time at my disposal, did Rosalie actually get her own page! In any case, this is how I have heard this before, as I was astounded to find Lamorlière did not have a dedicated page at all.



I have to admit that a couple years prior, I didn't know that she was a real person either. Shame on me. :oops:
Her life must have been really interesting but got overshadowed by all the other tragedies.

Author:  baron de batz [ Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Favourite historical figures other than Marie Antoinette

Yes some people describe her as frigid and prudish....she didn't like paradign her body around, that's for sure, always very modest in her undressing and bathing. But maybe Fersen knew how to unlock that passion inside.... :wink: We'll maybe never know.

Author:  Ludy [ Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Favourite historical figures other than Marie Antoinette

I don't think she can be said to be prudish, considering the kind of books she liked and the kind of people she mixed with. She strikes me as rather laid back as far as morality was concerned. I would say that she was inhibited due to her very strict upbringing and traumatizing sexual life.

Author:  baron de batz [ Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Favourite historical figures other than Marie Antoinette

Yes I tend to agree...I was not one of those calling her prudish. I think she had a very ironic almost wicked sense of humour for example. As for her traumatic sexual experience, indeed having a rather enormously built man on top trying and failing to do it time and time again can't have been very inspiring!! :) We know he got there in the end but not before he put her off for good...at least with him!! She even says after Madame Sophie that her job is done, and closes shop!! :lol: As for her background, it was better than many princesses, I don't agree with you there, MT had many children and cultivated family life, firmly believed in sharing a bed with her husband and they had quite a relaxed atmosphere compared to Versailles etiquette. What was traumatic was losing her father so young however.

Author:  Ludy [ Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Favourite historical figures other than Marie Antoinette

I guess you're right about her upbringing, although I was alluding to the relations to body and sex. I would say by and large that in the XVIII century, aristocracy had grown less open about sex than, let's say, during the Renaissance / Henry IV reign for instance. In spite of a certain lewdness in literature and art, everything that had to do with human body and intimacy was more or less disregarded. Sharing marital bed is one thing, knowing what to do in it is another...

I also feel that having sex with a man that positively turns you off must be traumatizing and difficult to overcome, even though it was considered as normal back then.


Unfortunately, I think that such a debate is warped by our own personal experciences, and at the end of the day, tells more about us than about Marie-Antoinette.

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