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What went wrong with her upbringing?
http://forum.marie-antoinette.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1058
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Author:  Ele [ Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:43 pm ]
Post subject: 

Thank you, this explains a lot!

Author:  Ray [ Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?

You posed a very interesting question, Elle, when you wondered if Marie's destiny might have beed somewhat different if she had conceived children much earlier in her marriage. I think that this might possibly have made a real difference. Not isolating herself from the majority of courtiers might also have helped. I will think more about this.
Ray

Author:  Rosalie [ Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?

Yes, I also think so. She would have been more popular, at least...and she would have avoided many rumours that were fatal to her

Author:  Orleans87 [ Tue May 31, 2011 12:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?

I don't think it would have made a difference if she got pregnant earlier. Her life-style stirred the prejudice and lead to exaggeration of true events and made-up lies.

Oh, of course France was already in debt in Louis the XV's reign, but nobody did anything about it, the spending wasn't cut short, they just closed their eyes and looked the other way. :whistle:

Marie Antoinette had to pay dearly for her husbands lacking interest in politic and economy.


Quote:
during her trial she said she did not know the country was in disaster because when she asked for money she received double what she asked for


A statement like that shows Marie Antoinette's naivety and ignorance. She could have known if she had been interested in it. if she could have changed anything, I don't know but she maybe would have been more careful in encouraging the rumors about her extravagant life-style. she might wouldn't have lost her head.

But everything was lost anyways after the attempted escape . :cry:

Author:  madame veronique [ Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?

Yes that is very true after the escape everything changed and what little hope of their surival was down the drain so many what if's :(

Author:  baron de batz [ Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?

You quote Orléans from a post made by another member back in 2007, about MA supposedly having said that she didn't know that the country was in a disaster as she had her "cassette" doubled!

I'm not aware of the Queen ever having said that, and I know the minutes of the trial pretty well. I refute the fact that she ever said anything of the sort, which would have been naive in the extreme, given the circumstances.

Many people on this forum make somewhat extavagant claims, and do not check their sources. I advise you always to check the veracity of such statements first, and not to take things at face value. Otherwise all we are doing here is further propagating the diffamation that MA suffered 220 years ago.

Author:  Lilly [ Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?

Orleans87 wrote:
I don't think it would have made a difference if she got pregnant earlier. Her life-style stirred the prejudice and lead to exaggeration of true events and made-up lies.


I think that it could have made all the difference in the world if MA had got pregnant much sooner. It was during those years that she'd make many of the mistakes (in the eyes of her enemies)that would come back to haunt her later. Almost any woman knows that motherhood changes a woman. Her child becomes her focus. Had MA had the focus of a child early on, all the partying and craziness probably would have been minimal and not alot for gossip. And people would have viewed her as a mother not a slut. There would have been no fodder for all the jokes and comments made about them sexually - which had to have been extermely embarassing for them both. Furthermore, because of sexual failure rumors started circulating about MA having sex with others.....which leads to the thought that she had emasculated the King. I think that this one thing - the idea she emasculated Louis - caused so much of the hatred French men developed toward Marie Antoinette. She ended up a slut in the eyes of men and men also never talk nicely of sluts. I think the role of a mother early on could have saved her so much torment during the Revolution.

Author:  Délicate fleur [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?

I agree! The role of the Queen as the Mother of France was sacred.

Author:  baron de batz [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?

It would have changed the whole course of events and of her life. Which is why Louis XVI is to blame in not being forceful enough, damn it for not being man enough!! Even if she did all she could to discourage him, he just had to show her who was boss! Which is quite obviously what she secretly desired all along. Can you imagine Louis XIV pussyfooting around like that?...no pun intended!

Author:  Ludy [ Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?

baron de batz wrote:
It would have changed the whole course of events and of her life. Which is why Louis XVI is to blame in not being forceful enough, damn it for not being man enough!! Even if she did all she could to discourage him, he just had to show her who was boss! Which is quite obviously what she secretly desired all along. Can you imagine Louis XIV pussyfooting around like that?...no pun intended!


Agreed.

Author:  derynirose [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?

What is most critical to remember, is that this girl was not the sister that had originally been set to be the mate to the Dauphin of France.
That sister became ill with smallpox, and when that marked the girl's skin, Antoinette, who was allowed to be less diligent in her studies, was then submitted as a substitute.
The French came to look her over, and the girl was then put through a round of painful dental surgeries to make her more acceptable- it's a wonder that the same thing couldn't be done for Louis, eh?
Her mother then had to put her through a boot camp of sorts to prepare her, but as someone noted the more laid back Austrian Court was a very different place to the French court.
It's amazing she did as well as she did, considering.

Author:  Lilly [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?

Welcome here Derynirose.....please introduce yourself.

baron de batz wrote:
he just had to show her who was boss!


Yes, it's true. MA was in no position to resist Louis' sexual advances - she had to submit. And...if Louis had been a man, he would have had sex with his wife - probably resulting in a much earlier pregnancy - thus averting so much trouble.

Author:  Ludy [ Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?

I am not sure I agree with that (what a surprise ! :lol: ). I think there are many ways to refuse to have sex other than actively resisting. Being too inactive for instance may be unsettling to an unexperienced and coy young man. It is also established that on a few occasions, Marie-Antoinette shut her door so that Louis could not visit her. This was rather unheard of for a Queen.

I do agree however that Louis ought to have displayed more authority towards his wife. But that was no easy thing to do.


Dernirose welcome ! I do agree with your comment. I might have misunderstood your post but I got the impression you slightly mixed up two archduchesses.

Elisabeth was the one that was disfigured by the smallpox. She used to be very beautiful and was to marry Louis XV, who proved rather uninterested in the project in spite of the girl's good looks. She was subsequently sent to a convent.

Marie-Antonia in fact replaced Maria-Carolina on the throne of France after the death of Maria-Josepha (who indeed died of the smallpox). Maria-Josepha was to marry the future king of Naples, so after her death everything got switched, with Maria-Carolina being sent to Naples and Maria-Antonia to Versailles. So there !)


I also think that the fact that Maria-Antonia was not to become a queen in the first place was very significant. Her mother bent over backwards to catch up with the girl's education and was very aware of the girl's shortcomings. Hence the constant worries and never ending spying when Marie-Antoinette was in Versailles.

In fact, Marie-Antoinette had been rather ill bred. But she did endeavor to improve her behaviour in the course of her life, which is no easy thing to do.

Author:  Lilly [ Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?

My comment was general - she did have to submit sexually, she was sent to France to produce heirs - her job, so to speak. Of course she could have avoided having sex with him on occasion, BUT - she still had to have sex with him in general.

Author:  Chocolat [ Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?

Well... Instead of asking "What went wrong with her upbringing?" one should rather ask what was wrong with him. She was told not to interfere in anything, to be gentle and kind and leave everything to him. He was the future king and in charge. They were both very young when they got married, and this may explain at least in part why it took them so long. But according to what MA wrote to her mother she was trying very hard to make him love her and to get pregnant. And I do believe that.

In my view Louis was very indecisive all his life. He was always (at least) one step behind the developments, one step too late. Perhaps due to a lack of interest. A lack of energy? An illness? Who knows...

There was a vacuum of power that he did not fill. Others did. And in the end, he chose to be a lamb rather than a butcher. Something that makes him an honorable man in spite of all shortcomings he may have had.

P.S.: Ever wondered what would have happened if instead of MA someone like her mother had married the king of France? Or if Louis XVI had the personality of Henry VIII? :angel1:

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