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Marie Antoinette's mother
http://forum.marie-antoinette.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1765
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Author:  baron de batz [ Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's mother

I was unaware of Max's visit. How interesting! What year was that?

Author:  Marija Vera [ Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's mother

That was in spring 1775 and here is a well known painting with Max in the red coat.
Attachment:
File comment: MA, Louis XVI and the Archduke Max.
M A..jpg
M A..jpg [ 99.79 KiB | Viewed 5543 times ]

Author:  Artois [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's mother

Although I've not read this anywhere, I can't help but feel that, as time went on, resentment was growing in Antoinette against her mother. An adolescent when Maria Theresa "sold" her youngest (and favorite??) daughter to a long-time enenmy, as Antoinette matured and increased her exposure to the vicious, rumor-driven court, and the stern unforgiving Comptesse de Noailles, Antoinette must have wondered why her mother placed her so young, so, inexperienced, so innocent in the snake pit that was Versailes where, as Louis said as the end approached, "She had no one to show her the way." I hope Louis had Maria Theresa in mind when he uttered his famous quote.

Antointte was not stupid; she had to wonder and then conclude how and who knew every aspect of her life, even intimate marital information. I can't imagine living knowing that my every action, every word (both truth and lies) was transmitted to a mother who, instead of empathy and comfort, blamed me for every infraction, social blunder, lack of a Dauphin or Dauphine. etc. 'Love' does not enter into Maria Theresa''s vocabulary. As a parent, I could never allow such treatment of a daughter to take place.

OK, times have changed and it's a different world, but the love of a child is still a priority for most. Except for one very tragic Queen.

Author:  Délicate fleur [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's mother

I'm not so sure Antoinette would've thought like we do. She was brought up to expect to live a great life with the expectations and responsibilities to match, whether she was to marry the future King of France or Saxony. Also, she said that she feared her mother growing up, so I don't think she would actually resent her. Certainly she would wonder about her predicament and miss her mother and family back in Vienna, but she wouldn't hate her mother for it.

Author:  Ludy [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's mother

Slightly off-topic. I read that Maria-Theresa objected to Marie-Antoinette writing to her beloved sister Maria-Carolina. Maria-Theresa insisted that their letters were sent through Vienna. Did the two sisters eventually keep in touch ? How regularly, and under what circumstances ?

I don't really agree with Marie-Antoinette's being resentful towards her mother. On the contrary, she did express on several occasions her gratefulness, since the crown of France was the most prestigious and she was but, after all, Maria-Theresa's last daughter. After all, political alliances through marriages were common place then. However, I agree that Maria-Theresa is to blamed for having neglected Antoinette's upbringing.

Author:  Anouk [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's mother

I think if she ever felt resentful to her mother (during her childhood in Vienna she was rather servile towards her Empress mother but it is apart from this conversation) it came from her habit rather than the period's conception. As we know Marie Antoinette was a very self-conscious and obstinate young lady for the epoch. However, she loved her mother very much and Maria Theresia must have loved her as well.
Her special situation might have also resulted in opposition. At that time daughters had to calm up even they were archduchesses... Marie Antoinette's case became different when she left for Versailles. She got into an other court far from her mother. She had the chance to evade or sometimes to deny. It was her special situation that allowed her to feel resentful and be rebellious.

Author:  Artois [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's mother

All good points to be sure and more representative of the period in question. I can't help but think of the Empress as a pimp; 'selling her girls for the right 'price' (or treaty). I picture a frightened and excited 13 year old rolling up to Versailles not knowing a soul and running up to that old letch Louis XV for a kiss. (He had already pronounced her bosom 'satisfactory')
It's enough to make you ill.








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Author:  Anouk [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's mother

Maria Theresia like a pimp? It's a bit forceful expression... but from the other side it is an effective thought. Marrying off her daughters to a stranger heir was not worthy for a mother. But look, she was a great politician and she provided her daughters' future by advise and care. I think nowadays people can't understand why royal marriages were so important at that time. Empires blew and fell by marriages. We are all living in a world determined by past royal marriages. Aren't we?

Author:  Délicate fleur [ Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's mother

Ludy wrote:
Slightly off-topic. I read that Maria-Theresa objected to Marie-Antoinette writing to her beloved sister Maria-Carolina. Maria-Theresa insisted that their letters were sent through Vienna. Did the two sisters eventually keep in touch ? How regularly, and under what circumstances ?

I'm not sure how regularly they corresponded, but I would guess it to be monthly? I know that Emma Hamilton was in contact with the Naples court and passed on letters during the early revolutionary days from Maria Carolina to France.

Author:  Nicola [ Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's mother

Anouk wrote:
Marrying off her daughters to a stranger heir was not worthy for a mother. But look, she was a great politician and she provided her daughters' future by advise and care.

I agree, she was a wonderful politician! She practically constructed the aliance between France and Austria.

Author:  Délicate fleur [ Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's mother

I wouldn't say so. She definitely instigated it, to gain an ally against Prussia, but the Duc de Choiseul and Mme. de Pompadour also had a big hand in the arrangement. Credit where it's due.

Author:  Rosalie [ Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's mother

About Maria Theresa's behaviour, I think it was normal for the time: royal girls expected to be married off somewhere accordings to political needs, and this often happened when they very young. In a way, it could be felt as a sort of duty if a sovereign to put the interests of the State before that of his/her children. What is to blame in Maria Theresa is, as someone said, not to have prepared Marie-Antoinette for her future role. Her life changed too fast and she didn't have time to prepare for her new poisition.
About the relationship between MA and her mother, I've always had the impression (but I can be wrong) there was a sort of ambivalence in Antoinette's feelings towards Maria Theresia: she admired and loved her, but in the same time she felt a bit intimidated by a mother with such a strong personality. The fact that Maria Theresia controlled her so tigthly didn't help...maybe her daughter resented sich a strong presence.

Author:  jimcheval [ Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's mother

Rosalie wrote:
royal girls expected to be married off somewhere accordings to political needs, and this often happened when they very young.


Not just royal, I'd think. A woman was property and if she could bring wealth or a title into a family, properly placed as a commodity, her feelings in the matter - or even her age - were pretty irrelevant in many strata of society. Just as many a worker married the widow of his deceased employer - presumably marrying the store as much as the woman.

Those who are greatly concerned with "traditional marriage" often forget that, aside from the longest-lived "tradition" being polygamy, traditional marriage was much more an economic and political affair than an affair of the heart.

As for young girls, think of the nine year olds who are still betrothed to much older men today in some countries. One of whom was actually brave enough to fight for a divorce from her abusive husband.

Author:  Elk [ Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's mother

jimcheval wrote:
Rosalie wrote:
royal girls expected to be married off somewhere accordings to political needs, and this often happened when they very young.


Not just royal, I'd think. A woman was property and if she could bring wealth or a title into a family, properly placed as a commodity, her feelings in the matter - or even her age - were pretty irrelevant in many strata of society. Just as many a worker married the widow of his deceased employer - presumably marrying the store as much as the woman.

Those who are greatly concerned with "traditional marriage" often forget that, aside from the longest-lived "tradition" being polygamy, traditional marriage was much more an economic and political affair than an affair of the heart.
.


Oh most certainly. One of the interesting things about history is that in terms of love and marriage this was the one realm where the poor were far better off than the wealthier. Only those who did not need to climb social ranks or make a political alliance could choose someone from the community around them who they felt a true affection for to settle down with. It really wasn't until Queen Victoria came along that people say the notion of marrying for love in the upper classes became a stronger concept. Even then though you could argue that some people had already suggested the match to Albert as a possibility and that by marrying him she also helped to further untangle herself from the political manoeuvrings of her own mother.

I don't think it is entirely fair to put Marie Therese down as a "pimp" selling off the children, if anything she is merely doing what everyone else around her was as well.

Author:  california lawyer [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's mother

such lovely to hear about this Marie Antoinette's life story..

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