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 Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette? 
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Yes. I believe they did love each other. However I highly doubt if it were indeed lust she would act on her lust. That would only solidify her reputation as being a "whore." even though she wasn't. :roll:

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Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:41 am
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Hans Axel wrote:
Pimprenelle wrote:
Dear Hans Axel, Ms Söderjhelm affirms that those words "resté là" are written under this spot.


In the Swedish edition of the published diary (with Alma Söderhjelm's comments - she was Finnish but in Finland they speak Swedish...) she does not say it was these French words but the Swedish.

~ I might add that I do not agree with Söderhjelm in any way, this horrible woman. ~

Thank you, dear Hans Axel ! As a Swede, you can give us the missing explanations ! I only have the French edition of Mrs Söderjhelm's book, and she makes no comments about this "resté là" supposition. However, elswhere in her book, she always says when a quotation is written in Swedish...

Her method is but suggestions and insinuations. It is terrible for a scholar.

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Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:44 am
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
baron de batz wrote:
One doesn't need Söderhjelm's assertion that Fersen wrote "resté là" in his diary to believe that Marie Antoinette and Fersen had a love affair, consummated or not. Many contemporary witnesses comment on this supposed affair between the two as if it was common knowledge, and the regular meetings between them, especially later on, were unheard of before for a Queen of France. Fersen's rôle towards this Royal couple, as a foreigner risking his life in this way, is inexplicable any other way. It is impossible to say that it was impossible for them to have slept together at the Tuileries (or elsewhere). I have even seen theories, quite plausible, that the nightwatch on the Queen may have been intentionaly slackened by Lafayette, perhaps in order to have some leverage on this Sovereign. It indeed seems likely that the powers to be knew of Fersen's visits, spies were everywhere. Maybe even Varennes was deliberately tolerated, in order to have a reason afterwards to destitute the King, which would explain some of the incredible incoherences of this famous voyage. Maybe these somewhat naive sovereigns, unschooled in the shady manners of espionnage, were more puppets on a string than we think...

Read the Girault de Coursac's analyse till the end, dear. You need it, after all these Dufrene's romances...

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Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:47 am
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
AxelRocksMyWorld wrote:
I think she was on fire for him! And she was, I believe, the Queen of his Heart! Even after her death Axel fought for her, trying to retrieve her things all across Europe for Marie Therese. That is proof to me that even if they were never physical, there was a love there beyond friendship.

You're right, Marie Antoinette definitely was the queen of Fersen's heart. Poor man, softly slipping into this nostalgical madness about lost times...

But please show us those letters written by Marie Antoinette which prove that she was... how do you so elegantly put it ?... "on fire for him" ? I am curious to read them...

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Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:49 am
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Pimprenelle wrote:
Thank you, dear Hans Axel ! As a Swede, you can give us the missing explanations ! I only have the French edition of Mrs Söderjhelm's book, and she makes no comments about this "resté là" supposition. However, elswhere in her book, she always says when a quotation is written in Swedish...

Her method is but suggestions and insinuations. It is terrible for a scholar.

And yet many "reputable" scholars have cited her works over the years! For me, this is almost more terrible... :roll:

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Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:35 am
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Condescension is not fair discussion Pim! :lol:

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Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:49 pm
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Oh, dear baron... But we talked about this over and over again... You came with this discussion already, and I answered you already...
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=944&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=120

Do you want me to copy-paste my reply ?

As long as you haven't read true analyses, as you could find in Loomis', Webster's, Delorme's, Girault de Coursac's books, as long as you haven't read Söderjhelm's work, any serious debate is hopeless, isn't it ?

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Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:54 am
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Not only condescension, but you under-estimate me Pim...which surprizes me! You do not hold the gospel truth on this matter, and what you consider serious literature is also a subjective matter. Many serious scholars share my view, as you know. And what I read so far of the Girault de Coursac does not look like changing my views drastically, but I'll reserve final judgement on that.

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Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:53 pm
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Just one more thing Pim, do you have a webcam in my library or something? :) How do you know what I have read and what I haven't? :?:

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Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:55 pm
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
baron de batz wrote:
Just one more thing Pim, do you have a webcam in my library or something? :) How do you know what I have read and what I haven't? :?:

:lol:

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Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:05 am
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
baron de batz wrote:
Just one more thing Pim, do you have a webcam in my library or something? :) How do you know what I have read and what I haven't? :?:

I just pay attention to what you tell us, dear baron. :biggrin: You always tell us about the books you read, Dufresne, for instance, you were so enthusiastic about... or the Girault you are in the middle of... You also once said you did not read Delorme, and you asked me for precise references about Webster. Am I wrong ?

And, baron, you really have a problem with under-estimation... Try to relax, dear... :cat: No one is judging you... Just asking for more serious readings before debating. For instance, Fersen' writings themselves seem necessary before talking about him.

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Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:59 am
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Pimprenelle wrote:
For instance, Fersen' writings themselves seem necessary before talking about him.



It is quite odd how few people there are who actually have read his diary and letters (not just quotations), but at the same time many seem to have a serious opinion about his and Antoinette's relationship... (?) And Fersen's diary is actually very exciting! Please read it. :wink:

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Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:47 am
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Is it available free or to purchase online?

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Wed Oct 15, 2008 11:02 am
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
It has been published by Alma Söderjhelm, or, at least a great deal of his diary and many letters. I guess there are more to be published still, but they are in Swedish... that's why it is so interesting for us to have our friend Hans Axel here !

I bought Söderjhelm's book online. So did our friend Chou d'amour.

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Wed Oct 15, 2008 11:58 am
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
baron de batz wrote:
Not only condescension, but you under-estimate me Pim...which surprizes me! You do not hold the gospel truth on this matter, and what you consider serious literature is also a subjective matter. Many serious scholars share my view, as you know. And what I read so far of the Girault de Coursac does not look like changing my views drastically, but I'll reserve final judgement on that.


Pim has not been in the least condescending to you, Baron. She is merely asking you to back up your opinions with precise facts, as she always backs up her opinions with precise evidence, rather than sweeping generalizations. Just because she asks you to be specific does not imply condescension. I do think that the pop biographers, such as Fraser, tend to favor the romantic theories, because that is what sells. The professional scholars and historians, such as the Coursacs, Delorme, Schama appear to sift the evidence much more carefully. When the evidence is sifted carefully, there is not enough to support such theories of a love affair. Loomis is one of the only historians whom I have read who, in sifting the evidence, seems to favor the theory that the queen and Fersen were in love and may have had one night together. But Loomis leaves it to the reader to make up their own mind, after presenting the evidence as he sees it.

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Last edited by Therese on Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:01 pm
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