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Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
http://forum.marie-antoinette.org/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=944
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Author:  Hans Axel [ Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?

Marija Vera wrote:
Recently I watched another documentary about M.A. and one French historian said that they probably had a liaison! What shall we say about that? I don’t doubt her knowledge or intelligence, she surely knows the topic better than most of us.


I really doubt her knowledge and conclusions, and I do not think she knows the topic better than everyone here. Furthermore; you do not know all the people in this forum, this is a place where everyone can be anonymous - that is personally somethink I like. Some of the people here are published writers, some are hobby historians - but who have read more on the topic than several published writers and they have come to more true conclusions than some who work as historians - etc, etc. (Some here are of course nothing of the sort; people who just have a fascination of Antoinette and the era, maybe.)

And... Because of the other things you wrote: I still think you should read this and all the other threads of the topic (especially since you are a history student). There are so many people here who have not read this thread and they make the same arguments that already have been proven wrong.

Author:  Princess2 [ Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?

Hans Axel wrote:
Some of the people here are published writers


Wow, I didn't know that!!! Who are they?? :book:

Author:  Therese [ Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?

Princess2 wrote:
Hans Axel wrote:
Some of the people here are published writers


Wow, I didn't know that!!! Who are they?? :book:


If they wanted you to know, they would use their real names. :glasses:

Author:  Princess2 [ Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?

Therese wrote:
If they wanted you to know, they would use their real names.


No I didn't mean like WHO ARE THEY and what works have they had published lol!! :wink: I was meaning, just out of interest, which forum members Hans Axel was referring to. (I hope this makes sense....it certainly doesn't as I'm typing it :lol:).

Actually I'm just being nosey I suppose.... :rainbow:

Author:  Marija Vera [ Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?

Thank you Hans Axel for your suggestion.

If I catch that documentary again, I will write her name down. :idea:
Princess2 wrote:
No I didn't mean like WHO ARE THEY and what works have they had published lol!! I was meaning, just out of interest, which forum members Hans Axel was referring to. (I hope this makes sense....it certainly doesn't as I'm typing it ).


It is so cute. :lol:

Author:  Pimprenelle [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?

I am afraid I have to disagree with you, Marija Vera. It is not a matter of personal opinion. These demonstrations made by Nesta Webster and Stanley Loomis about Fersen's letter to Sophie Piper are no personal opinions. They clearly show that Alma Söderjhelm's analyse is wrong. Though, many historians still rely on Madame Söderjhelm's analyse, and affirm that Fersen meant Marie Antoinette while writing "my friend".

Author:  Therese [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?

Yes, Pim, very true. The romanticism about Count Fersen based on Alma Söderjhelm is carried on in spite of the contrary historical analysis of serious scholars.

Author:  Marija Vera [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?

So the final conclusion would be that Marie Antoinette NEVER had any lover?
I was always keen to believe that she and Louis had more friendly relation than romantic (we discussed it too but under the different topic I believe). It is hard for me to believe that she never loved (as a woman) anyone.

Author:  Therese [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?

Marija Vera wrote:
So the final conclusion would be that Marie Antoinette NEVER had any lover?
I was always keen to believe that she and Louis had more friendly relation than romantic (we discussed it too but under the different topic I believe). It is hard for me to believe that she never loved (as a woman) anyone.


There is no evidence that she ever had a lover, at all. She was the Queen of France; it was not part of her reality. Perhaps that was a great part of her tragedy. But I also believe she found a great deal of fulfillment in her children, in her friends, in her charities, in her many creative projects.

Author:  Ludy [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?

It was not uncommon to the time. Women did not marry with the hope to find great romantic love, but to break free from the parents'authority. It was especially the case for the archduchesses, considering Maria Teresa's personality. Marie Antoinette must not have been disappointed with Louis, for he allowed her to indulge in her leisures and pleasures. I feel that believing in romantic love is quite typical of our time and our countries, in different cultures, this is not the ideal at all. What is more, people had moral values : I am not talking about faith, but christian principles as regards to personal behaviour. Marie-Antoinette after all, was quite a prudish person, even though she could laugh at risqué jokes, and it's not easy to dismiss the principles you have been taught at an early age. So there would be nothing surprising about her remaining faithfull to her husband. Maybe she felt some attraction to some of her male friends like Lauzun or (why not ?) Fersen that was neither serious nor long-lasting (if it ever happened). There were plenty of ambassadors, courtiers scrutinizing her, so each time she seemed to find sb attractive, he was seen as a potential lover : the Fersen story could boil down to that. It is enought to say that all of the men she mixed with were womanizers (especially Fersen), I don't think that, proud as she was, she would have liked to be only one woman among many others (see her reaction when Louis was offered a mistress).

Author:  Therese [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?

Ludy wrote:
It was not uncommon to the time. Women did not marry with the hope to find great romantic love, but to break free from the parents'authority. It was especially the case for the archduchesses, considering Maria Teresa's personality. Marie Antoinette must not have been disappointed with Louis, for he allowed her to indulge in her leisures and pleasures. I feel that believing in romantic love is quite typical of our time and our countries, in different cultures, this is not the ideal at all. What is more, people had moral values : I am not talking about faith, but christian principles as regards to personal behaviour. Marie-Antoinette after all, was quite a prudish person, even though she could laugh at risqué jokes, and it's not easy to dismiss the principles you have been taught at an early age. So there would be nothing surprising about her remaining faithful to her husband. Maybe she felt some attraction to some of her male friends like Lauzun or (why not ?) Fersen that was neither serious nor long-lasting (if it ever happened). There were plenty of ambassadors, courtiers scrutinizing her, so each time she seemed to find so attractive, he was seen as a potential lover : the Fersen story could boil down to that. It is enought to say that all of the men she mixed with were womanizers (especially Fersen), I don't think that, proud as she was, she would have liked to be only one woman among many others (see her reaction when Louis was offered a mistress).


Excellent points. Certainly, she may have felt a passing attraction for certain handsome men, but that only means she was human, not that she slept with any of them. Yes, and she was extremely prudish. Also, it had been drummed into her that as Queen she was to bear the Children of France, a sacred duty to her.

Author:  Hellou_Librorum [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?

Princess2 wrote:
Hans Axel wrote:
Some of the people here are published writers


Wow, I didn't know that!!! Who are they?? :book:



I am not a published writer.

Author:  Pimprenelle [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?

Therese wrote:
Marija Vera wrote:
So the final conclusion would be that Marie Antoinette NEVER had any lover?
I was always keen to believe that she and Louis had more friendly relation than romantic (we discussed it too but under the different topic I believe). It is hard for me to believe that she never loved (as a woman) anyone.


There is no evidence that she ever had a lover, at all. She was the Queen of France; it was not part of her reality. Perhaps that was a great part of her tragedy. But I also believe she found a great deal of fulfillment in her children, in her friends, in her charities, in her many creative projects.

I could not agree with you more, as well as with Ludy's later comment. Some modern historians came to the conclusion that Marie Antoinette was rather an "a-sexual" person, with the privative alpha from the Greek, meaning that she was not interested in sex. This could explain why she was so coquette and flirtative, because, being uniterested, she was innocent.

Obviously, she found fulfillment in her friendships, in her love for her children and in these many passions she had, such as theatre, singing, music, painting, fashions, arts and décoration, furnitures, gardening, pets... so many passions she had !

Author:  Pimprenelle [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?

Ludy wrote:
It was not uncommon to the time. Women did not marry with the hope to find great romantic love, but to break free from the parents'authority. It was especially the case for the archduchesses, considering Maria Teresa's personality. Marie Antoinette must not have been disappointed with Louis, for he allowed her to indulge in her leisures and pleasures. I feel that believing in romantic love is quite typical of our time and our countries, in different cultures, this is not the ideal at all. What is more, people had moral values : I am not talking about faith, but christian principles as regards to personal behaviour. Marie-Antoinette after all, was quite a prudish person, even though she could laugh at risqué jokes, and it's not easy to dismiss the principles you have been taught at an early age. So there would be nothing surprising about her remaining faithfull to her husband. Maybe she felt some attraction to some of her male friends like Lauzun or (why not ?) Fersen that was neither serious nor long-lasting (if it ever happened). There were plenty of ambassadors, courtiers scrutinizing her, so each time she seemed to find sb attractive, he was seen as a potential lover : the Fersen story could boil down to that. It is enought to say that all of the men she mixed with were womanizers (especially Fersen), I don't think that, proud as she was, she would have liked to be only one woman among many others (see her reaction when Louis was offered a mistress).

How true !

Didn't she write that "her husband would disapprove her to play Venus' part, while he did not disagree with her actual tastes" ? Doesn't it mean exactly what you explain, dear Ludy ? It seems you could go deep into Marie Antoinette's psychology and her relationship with Louis XVI. He allowed her pleasures... that were not those of Venus, as she explicitly points out.

I am in complete agreement with your second point too : Maria Antonia Josepha Johanna von Habsburg Lothringen was to proud a lady to accept to be a woman among others ! "I feel only to well which blood is running in my veins", she kept repeating.

Author:  Therese [ Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?

Pimprenelle wrote:
This could explain why she was so coquette and flirtative, because, being uninterested, she was innocent.


This is a brilliant point, Pim, one that should be quite obvious, although it eludes most people. It is Marie-Antoinette's quality of innocence which shines through her letters, her actions. Only an innocent person could have such a variety of friends, especially friendships with handsome men, without disturbing her husband at all. Why? Because he, more than anyone else, appreciated her innocence.

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