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 Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette? 
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Hans Axel wrote:
Marija Vera wrote:
Do you know for example how Fersen did react after the royal family had been caught and later the queen executed?


As Therese said before me; Fersen wrote very nice things of the queen in his diary and he was of course devastated when he heard of the queen's execution and all this you can read in his diary. You can find some extracts from this if you read some other threads about the subject here at Marie Antoinette Online. Take some time and read these threads because so many of your questions have already been asked - and answered. The parts that Pimprenelle posted here from Fersen's diary are also not all he wrote about Antoinette, it's not really strange I think, when you read it all, but it's hard to post all of that here. I recommend you all to read it.

Marija Vera wrote:
Yes but Louis didn’t want people to find out that Fersen had helped them. How than that would make him a hero?


That's not true, everybody knew that Fersen was the one helping them, and everybody would have known that if the flight would have been successful too. The reason Louis did not want Fersen to accompany them the last way was because Louis did not want Fersen to get in trouble. Sadly.

---

I think Therese sums it all up very well also. Fersen loved Antoinette, but then he was a true royalist, and his love is no where near evidence of a liaison and it does certainly not mean Antoinette loved anyone else than her husband. That Fersen was a friend of Louis is also relevant for this discussion. Fersen was also a proud man with wishes to be a great man, so why would he not want to save the greatest monarchs at that time from death, even if it was somewhat dangerous? The fact that he was a foreigner also made it easier for him to be the one helping the king and queen in the planned escape. Many of those who left Paris when the royal family might have needed them would have been killed if they would have stayed, but Fersen had no instant reason to escape - this alone does not make him a hero.

Also, as Pimprenelle writes, there were many who tried to help the royal family, though Fersen is the one who historians have decided to mention the most. He happened to be the one accompanying them on their escape, but he was not alone in planning it. Many of the people who aided the royal family was friends of Fersen though, like de Jarjayes and Craufurd/Sullivan.

About weather or not only desperate romantics believe in the Fersen myth I would also have to say no. But that is because so many historians insists that a liaison happened. When you then read about these things your mind is made up that they were romantically involved, but that doesn't mean you are romantical, it is just your beliefs and then it's hard to see things clearly...

My main interest is, as I've said in this forum before, Fersen. When you write about Fersen it's impossible not to mention Antoinette. But when your main intrest is Antoinette, as for most of you who are here (I believe), it's not really necessairy to speak about Fersen, exept if you're speaking about the flight. With this I do not mean that he was not a true or close friend to Antoinette, but I don't think he had such a big place in Antoinette's life before the planned escape.




You said it all better than I ever could. Thank you, Hans Axel.

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Mon May 12, 2008 10:40 pm
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Hans Axel wrote:
About weather or not only desperate romantics believe in the Fersen myth I would also have to say no. But that is because so many historians insists that a liaison happened. When you then read about these things your mind is made up that they were romantically involved, but that doesn't mean you are romantical, it is just your beliefs and then it's hard to see things clearly...

Well I must say that people that swallow all facts at face value without questioning....I mention romance because many authors tend to put a loving slant to their relationship, Fraser, Söderjhelm,et al. I do not mean to be rude.

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Tue May 13, 2008 1:50 am
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Please, dear Axel, go on telling us about count Fersen ! Your analysis is as brilliant as clear and balanced.

... And you are the only one who speaks about Fersen in a way that makes me like him ! ... with him himself, I must admit. His own writings when he gets to Vienna for meeting Marie Therese Charlotte and feels completely lost almost made my cry...

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Tue May 13, 2008 7:14 am
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Thank you Therese and Pimprenelle, I value your opinion. Fersen is in deed interesting and (might I say) amiable, but you have to focus on Fersen when you read about him and his life, and not him through Antoinette's life. I guess many of the people from that time are intresting, more than we know (and will ever...), in the shadow of Antoinette.

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Tue May 13, 2008 5:31 pm
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Ok. I won’t ask questions anymore since, as you said, lot of them had already been answered, I had just read posts from this topic. I agree with some of yours conclusions but I don’t think that many other analyses are for underestimating. I am not romantic neither I want to make Marie Antoinette’s story romantic or more interesting. My opinion is based on how I see that situation, my events and characters analysis, of course I don’t have a problem if someone thinks different. I will try to find and read Fersen’s diary.

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Tue May 13, 2008 6:57 pm
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Marija Vera wrote:
Ok. I won’t ask questions anymore since, as you said, lot of them had already been answered, I had just read posts from this topic.


There's nothing wrong with asking questions, but when there are several threads with all the same questions it's confusing for everyone. I'm sure many people here will be happy to answer your questions after you have read the other threads (if you still have questions...).

Marija Vera wrote:
I agree with some of yours conclusions but I don’t think that many other analyses are for underestimating.


Sadly, as I think you will find out, there are just too many historians who have got the wrong idea without any evidence. But; one thing to remember is that many of these historians have not analysed the whole Antoinette-Fersen-thing, they only rewrite other people's (Alma Söderhjelm, for example) conclusions - right or wrong.

Marija Vera wrote:
I will try to find and read Fersen’s diary.


But remember that his words and his love is no evidence of Antoinette's love and especially not a liaison.

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Tue May 13, 2008 7:15 pm
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Hans Axel, sorry if I got it wrong but I think that you and Therese may be sometimes to passionate while talking about this subject (seeing discussion with Monika and Baron de B.). I don’t think that it is necessary wrong but when we are discussing something where your and mine point of view could be right (since we can’t know for sure, but trying by analyzing the situation to see what is the most convincing) then there’s no point to argue but to discuss. I won’t participate in further debate about it because this reminds me on argue between passionate atheist and believer: Does God exists? – and we can talk about it for centuries. (I like to talk but I don’t want to hurt people feelings with the things I say)

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Wed May 14, 2008 9:24 pm
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Marija Vera wrote:
Hans Axel, sorry if I got it wrong but I think that you and Therese may be sometimes to passionate while talking about this subject (seeing discussion with Monika and Baron de B.). I don’t think that it is necessary wrong but when we are discussing something where your and mine point of view could be right (since we can’t know for sure, but trying by analyzing the situation to see what is the most convincing) then there’s no point to argue but to discuss. I won’t participate in further debate about it because this reminds me on argue between passionate atheist and believer: Does God exists? – and we can talk about it for centuries. (I like to talk but I don’t want to hurt people feelings with the things I say)


Dear Marija Vera, I am amazed that you find "passionate" argument in my responses to your persistent inquiries about Count Fersen and the queen. Frankly, I am bored with the topic. There is so much more to Marie-Antoinette than her supposed relationship with Fersen. I am delighted that you have finally decided to drop the topic.

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Wed May 14, 2008 9:30 pm
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
It’s ok but if you’re board you should stop writing! My intention or Barons certainly was not to waist your time. :lol:

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Wed May 14, 2008 9:34 pm
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Discussing historical facts, clearing up misconceptions, is not a waste of time. :D It is just that there are so many other things about Marie-Antoinette than whether or not she slept with Count Fersen. :wink:

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Wed May 14, 2008 9:55 pm
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
:) :) :)

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Wed May 14, 2008 10:06 pm
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
I am sorry, Marija Vera, but this Fersen legend cannot be compared to the existence of God ! There are documents about Fersen ! It is not a matter of faith, but of historical analysis.

So, we don't have to keep repeating "I believe", or "I don't believe", we have to show documents proving what we say. And that's what I did.

Where are yours, dear Marija Vera ?

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Thu May 15, 2008 7:02 am
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
And yours? I think the really only one is- we don’t have a proof of their liaison.
Catholic doctrine, not really. Marie A. was raised to be a good catholic but she wasn’t as modest in her youth as the priests would expect from a good women believer. Catholic faith didn’t stop many priests to behave…well not as they should, not sinless at all. I don’t think that that is significant to confirm your attitude at all. Yes she was followed everywhere, like the most of the kings were and that didn’t stopped them to have lovers. I have said that maybe love beetwen them was not physical, here I agree with Therese – Why is so important to say did she sleep with him, is that liaison is all about? :lol: Her love towards Louis, there are all sorts of love; you can love more than one person in your life. There is one sentence I like, I will try to interpret it right – If you manage to control a woman you will manage to control the state. Louis couldn’t deal with situation in his kingdom and he was always influenced by someone, I believe that, even if he had known that Marie A. had a lover, he wouldn’t have reacted furiously. Fersen’s diary may be significant to confirm your theory but I must read it first, Hans Axel said that it may prove Fersen’s love towards Marie A. but not her feelings. And here we come to the story about God… We may discuss the historical facts about Christ.

I had said I won’t discuss it furthermore but you made me dear Pim! :D
Since I am in a hurry I will continue with my opinion tonight but I think I’ve said it in my previous posts, at least part of it…

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Thu May 15, 2008 9:16 am
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Marija Vera wrote:
And yours? I think the really only one is- we don’t have a proof of their liaison.
Catholic doctrine, not really. Marie A. was raised to be a good catholic but she wasn’t as modest in her youth as the priests would expect from a good women believer. Catholic faith didn’t stop many priests to behave…well not as they should, not sinless at all. I don’t think that that is significant to confirm your attitude at all. Yes she was followed everywhere, like the most of the kings were and that didn’t stopped them to have lovers. I have said that maybe love beetwen them was not physical, here I agree with Therese – Why is so important to say did she sleep with him, is that liaison is all about? :lol: Her love towards Louis, there are all sorts of love; you can love more than one person in your life. There is one sentence I like, I will try to interpret it right – If you manage to control a woman you will manage to control the state. Louis couldn’t deal with situation in his kingdom and he was always influenced by someone, I believe that, even if he had known that Marie A. had a lover, he wouldn’t have reacted furiously. Fersen’s diary may be significant to confirm your theory but I must read it first, Hans Axel said that it may prove Fersen’s love towards Marie A. but not her feelings. And here we come to the story about God… We may discuss the historical facts about Christ.

I had said I won’t discuss it furthermore but you made me dear Pim! :D
Since I am in a hurry I will continue with my opinion tonight but I think I’ve said it in my previous posts, at least part of it…


On the contrary, Marie-Antoinette was quite modest in her youth. She was not extremely devout but always practiced her faith nevertheless.

Yes, the kings were "followed everywhere" and we have evidence that they slept with their mistresses-- they were seen in bed with them. Marie-Antoinette was never seen in bed with anyone but Louis.

I would recommend reading Nesta Webster's two volume study. It is important whether or not the queen slept with Fersen, simply because people have made the legend a central aspect of her life. This is not right because there is NO proof that she had an affair with him but plenty of proof that she was faithful to her husband at great cost to herself.

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Thu May 15, 2008 12:35 pm
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
I think the most important thing with this is that there are no evidence of a liaison and (most importantly) if a liaison happened, at that time and in that place, there would be evidence.

About love I also think there would be evidence of Antoinette's love for Fersen if she loved him (in "that" way, more than she loved Polignac, for instance). Letters etc, etc. But there are none. There are letters, but they don't put him over anyone else of Antoinette's friends/acquaintances, I think they/that actually prove the opposite - that she didn't love him like that.

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Thu May 15, 2008 4:21 pm
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