Marie Antoinette Online
  • FORUM
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:35 pm



Reply to topic  [ 53 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant? 
Author Message
Post Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
Hi,

What I wonder is why was Louis not able to make Marie Antoinette pregnant? Was it

because he needed an operation or

because he needed a talking to?

I've seen the film lots of times and I know what they say - Joseph came over and had a quiet word in naive Louis' ear and then - hey presto - Marie Antoinette got pregnant.

But really, there's naive and there's NAIVE! I mean the man made locks and keys! Hmmmm do you think that was Freudian? Do you think Coppolla meant it to be Freudian?

Anyway in the secret letters Louis tells his grandfather a few times that he understands his duties as a husband, coz his naughty old grandfather couldn't understand what was going on between Louis and his wife (or not going on - for years and years and years!)

Also in the film an embarrassed old doc questions Louis, or sort of questions him, while Marie Antoinette giggles and Louis squirms

Anyway in the secret letters, Mercy and Marie Antoinette both talk lots of times about Louis seeing a doc and even the old battleaxe, Marie Antoinette's mum, sent over a doc once or twice to question Louis. I mean can we really believe that Maria Theresa's doc didn't grill Louis? - she was desperate for Marie Antoinette to have a baby.

Also Marie Antoinette's mum also talks in the letters of Louis needing an op, and so does Marie Antoinette. Marie Antoinette also tells her mother that Louis is not yet strong enough to be her husband. Hmmmmmm.

And - after Joseph visits Marie Antoinette and I suppose has his little word with Louis, it's quite a while after Joseph has left France and gone back to Austria before Marie Antoinette writes to her mother that she is finally happy with Louis. I mean if it was only a quiet word Louis needed then surely Marie Antoinette would have written to her mum next day - but if it was an op - well!

And Mercy, in a letter to Maria Theresa, said that Louis' brother Provence was also not able to make his wife pregnant. Although he did add that Provence's wife, unlike Marie Antoinette, was ugly! - hmmmm.

So what do people think - an op or a word in his ear?

I seem to be the only person on the planet who's read the new book of translated letters. If anyone's interested in reading them, they're by Macleod, 'There were three of us in the relationship, the secret letters of Marie Antoinette' and you can get them on Amazon. I don't know if you can get them anywhere else. There's much more detail in them than in anything else I've read

Anyway let me know what people think.


Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:17 am
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:32 am
Posts: 294
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
I'm a little too lazy to go look for the sources on this, but as I recall he had a physical impediment and actually had to have a (brrrr....) operation in that area before he could consummate the marriage. The fact that he was a bit of a nebbish probably didn't help though. (Brother Joseph seems to have fancied himself a bit of a stud and was especially tickled to meet Mme. Dubarry; I have my doubts about how useful his supercilious advice to the couple would have been.)

As for the letters, some of us have at least browsed them in French, or even read them. But the gist of what they say is pretty well-known (there's a whole thread elsewhere on one author's claim - unsubstantiated in the versions I've read - that Louis had an affair with Polignac.)

_________________
Jim Chevallier
North Hollywood, CA
http://www.chezjim.com


Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:38 pm
Profile
Comte/Comtesse
Comte/Comtesse

Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:13 am
Posts: 34
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
He had to have the surgery because he had "too much skin" in that area and had to have it removed. And that is why they could not produce an heir.


Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:35 am
Profile
Royalty
Royalty
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:10 pm
Posts: 710
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
If I recall, it took something like seven years for this marriage to be consumated. Louis did get Marie Antoinette pregnant within a relatively short period of time after the consumation as she gave birth to Marie Therese in December of 1778.

The psychological reasons for the failure of consumation for such a long period of time are something else to be speculated. Their young ages certainly contributed to the situation. Also, can you imagine this whole thing being public knowledge when you are someone as young and shy as Louis XVI? I can imagine that the public embarassment would make him want to avoid the whole thing all together. And no wonder MA found other ways to entertain herself - how would it be to be so young and to have people talking openly about your sex life - I can't imagine it.


Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:34 am
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:42 am
Posts: 653
Location: Paris
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
This topic was much discussed before. There is no evidence that Louis underwent any kind of surgery, several physicians asserted that his physical constituion was good and did not make any surgery necessary. However, Marie-Antoinette, Mercy and her mother kept on harking back to it, maybe to conceal that the responsability of the "failure" was on both sides. According notably to Bertière, Marie-Antoinette did not display enough meekness, for she was frightened or even disgusted by her husband, and Louis was quite clumsy. MA was but fourteen when she got married. She looked even younger and was not able to consummate her marriage. She was around 21 when it was fully consummated, which seems to be a rather normal age ...

_________________
" Perfection is not achieved when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.


Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:09 am
Profile
Duc/Duchesse
Duc/Duchesse
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 8:21 pm
Posts: 154
Location: Canada
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
It was discussed in quite a bit detail in this thread, Grace,
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=699


Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:55 pm
Profile
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
Hi again,

thanks for the replies.

Thanks Jadean for the info about the other threads - I'll look at them, but even Zweig believed there was an operation.

Ludy - I know Marie Antoinette was not meek later into the marriage, but the Secret Letters show that when she arrived she was quite docile. Her irritation with Louis only grew from frustration at his incompetence - after all look at D'Artois - he wasted no time getting his wife pregnant, again and again - unlike Louis and Provence. And Provence never got his wife pregnant and I don't think he even got his mistress pregnant!

Jimcheval - I think the reply about Polignac is funny - I've seen that thread and am going to put up something about it. Louis couldn't be bothered with Polignac at all and only put up with her for Marie Antoinette's sake. Mercy keeps talking about how he had no time for her.


Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:29 pm
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:21 am
Posts: 1545
Location: paris
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
Wait for my reply on that one... :wink:

_________________
"Fidelité et constance, sans espoir de récompense."


Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:36 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:42 am
Posts: 653
Location: Paris
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
Well, I have to disagree. She may have been docile at the very beginning, but even before her arrival, she had been cautioned against her husband and was quite wary. Besides, she might have heard of her sisters' previous experiences, like Maria-Carolina who wrote that her first night with her husband was a real martyrdom. She was very young, and very frightened. Of course, in her letters, she strives to put the blame entirely on Louis, but even her mother had great doubts.

_________________
" Perfection is not achieved when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.


Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:18 am
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:54 am
Posts: 2040
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
grace wrote:
Hi again,

thanks for the replies.

Thanks Jadean for the info about the other threads - I'll look at them, but even Zweig believed there was an operation.


Hello !

Indeed, Zweig beleived there was an operation, for he only considered the letters kept in Vienna, where Marie Antoinette discussed the possibility of it.

So, Stephan Zweig ran into it and he made a mistake. He took discussions for evidences. Actually, there are medical reports showing that Louis XVI had no serious impediment. There also is his diary, showing no interruptions in his huntings. And, most of all, there is this famous letter Joseph wrote to Leopold during his visit in France, where he clearly describes the situation.

This letter Zweig never read, that's why he made this mistake, that would be so terrible for Louis XVI's reputation among modern scholars. On the contrary, Simone Bertière wonderfully explained it all and recalls that Louis was no coward. He would have submitted his body to any necessary operation. He did not, for no operation was needed.

_________________
te voir encore me rappelle à la vie


Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:03 am
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:32 am
Posts: 294
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
Turns out there's quite a bit out there in Google-land for anyone who cares to look. Some samples:

http://books.google.com/books?id=5_VdPU ... q=&f=false

http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/in ... view&id=80

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/au ... ties.books

http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/in ... view&id=78

http://books.google.com/books?id=ypZ3hE ... vi&f=false

http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo ... 5158ZQtqAu
(with nice picture of MA too)

_________________
Jim Chevallier
North Hollywood, CA
http://www.chezjim.com


Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:13 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:54 am
Posts: 2040
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
The fact is that there is no medical tracks of any phimosis regarding Louis XVI. This among other impediments, was the subject of gossips among Versailles, largely spread out in the people (by those who wanted to lower the royal power) and in European courts (Mercy had a great responsability in this story... he was so afraid for this alliance that he tried the best he could to put the blame on Louis).

So, in the late XVIIIe century, Louis XVI was considered un impotent man. What kind of impotence ? All of them. He was unable to get her wife pregnant, unable to resist her will, unable to save money, unable to rule the country... This was part of this massive propaganda against Louis XVI's throne.

Then, among modern scholars, Stephan Zweig constructed his Freudian theory based on some conversations between Antoinette and her mother, or Mercy and his empress. Actually, his was wrong, for he took for granted words that expressed only possibilities and gossips. Unfortunately, those who buy books love that kind of stories, with desperate and frustrated princesses. So, Zweig's thesis, even if wrong, is still largely believed.

Fortunately, there are excellent scholars in France, who made relevant studies about Louis XVI and not only Marie Antoinette. They definitely proved there never was any operation on Louis, for there was no need of this. I suggest you to read Paul and Pierrette Girault de Coursac's important works, or Simone Bertière's biography of Antoinette, the best one ever made. You could also read Jean Christian Petitfils' biography of Louis XVI.

_________________
te voir encore me rappelle à la vie


Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:29 am
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:32 am
Posts: 294
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
I presume the preceding was NOT directed to me?

The links I provided in fact say the same thing, so I don't need any more convincing.

_________________
Jim Chevallier
North Hollywood, CA
http://www.chezjim.com


Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:11 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:44 am
Posts: 250
Location: There among the stars
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
I had read that Louis did not perform the act correctly......that he was still and did not move, and that was the problem.....also that Marie Antoinette did not know any better herself. Ambassador Creutz wrote to King Gustav III of Sweden that..... "Marie Antoinette had told the Duchesse Du Polignac, While previously Louis had been dull in bed he was now an absoulte Hercules." I would hate to think that Polignac, went right to Louis to try and sample some of that for herself.....I am relived to find that he had no time for Polignac!!!! :angel11:

_________________
Kära du, tillåt mig, med eld i mitt hjärta, att hålla dig varm.


Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:20 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:21 am
Posts: 1545
Location: paris
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
Could you find that quote about Louis XVI being a Hercules in bed....interesting and surprizing as MA didn't have much means of comparison or much experience?

_________________
"Fidelité et constance, sans espoir de récompense."


Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:30 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 53 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware for PTF.