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 Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.? 
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Post Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?
Does anyone think this.?


Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:47 am
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Post Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?
Welcome dear!
I think almost everyone think it here :lol: ....

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Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:22 pm
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Post Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?
Read some books. Find out the truth for yourself. Of course she was wrongly beheaded. Vive la Reine


Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:07 pm
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Post Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?
Vive la Reine!!!!! Ask a silly question...

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Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:20 pm
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Post Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?
She was indefinately wrongly beheaded. The only crime she was guilty of was treason, but by the time her trial came, the Tribunal had already decided to kill her, and most of the accussations against her were purely based on the pamphlets that had been circulating in the press. If she and the rest of the family hadn't been captured at Varennes, they probably would've lived.
But since they were captured, Marie Antoinette was never given a chance to properly defend herself, and was wrongly accused to having involvement in some of the financial affairs of France, when her education had doomed her to be so. She was a little girl, married for political reasons, ill-educated about Austria as well as France. Both she and Louis were victims of their environments, and were sentenced to death because of it.


Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:20 pm
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Post Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?
she is one of the most wronged women in history


Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:23 am
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Post Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?
Leisel86 wrote:
The only crime she was guilty of was treason


Uh... Is that meant to be a DEFENSE?

Honestly, in my own case, I don't know if she was wrongly beheaded. I browsed one book which raised some specific points which, if true, would suggest she WAS guilty of treason. Which, yes, in many countries would have gotten you killed at the time.

So on the one hand there are the legalistic points, which would probably take some analysis.

On the other hand, revolutionaries often want to kill off royal families, with the general idea that that will kill off royalty itself (worked OK in Russia, didn't do great in France, where both Louis XVI's brothers later reigned). So it seems very likely they would have killed her on some pretext any way you cut it.

But then, they killed a lot of people. Most of them commoners. Not to mention all the revolutionaries killed by other revolutionaries (also a long tradition in the genre).

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Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:52 am
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Post Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?
she was NOT guilty of treason. Antoinette served the true King of France to her last breath. France was treasonis to Louis XVI who just happens to be a big reason I as an American have freedom today.


Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:02 am
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Post Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?
Well whether or not you believe she was guilty of treason depends on whether you believe the revolutionary government was valid or not, and even then whether any acts she had committed or words she spoke were treasonous under those terms. Naturally, opinions whether they be personal, political or legal in this case will vary.

For me personally, no one ought to be beheaded, but this is a purely personal opinion and actually relates neither to my opinion of Antoinette's behaviour or of the revolution but to that modern concept of human rights and death penalties. In the particular case of Marie Antoinette, I question the validity of the revolutionary government and have severe reservations about the process of justice in place in France. Not to be equivocal at all, but obviously if you ask someone else (probably someone not belonging to this board) well versed in the subject but coming at it from the revolutionary perspective they could very likely give you clear legal and logical reason as to why the beheading was perfectly necessary and just.

This is, I think, a simple question with many very very complicated answers!

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Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:06 am
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Post Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?
AxelRocksMyWorld wrote:
she was NOT guilty of treason. Antoinette served the true King of France to her last breath. France was treasonis to Louis XVI who just happens to be a big reason I as an American have freedom today.


An interesting - and self-contradicting - bit of logic, since if one accepts that the king of a country is necessarily the legitimate ruler, all our Founding Fathers should (as they in fact risked being) have been executed for treason. And the legitimate ruler of the United States would still be the English monarch.

I don't believe either that Louis XVI and his counselors were unaware - nor completely comfortable - with the precedent they were setting in defending a people opposing its king.

I must say I'm bemused by the idea that the people judging Marie-Antoinette were illegitimate rulers, rather than any attempt to judge the charges on their own merits. Modern democracies are generally based on the principle that legitimate government flows directly from the expressed will of the people, something that can't very well be defended in any hereditary monarchy, much less the French one, which was particularly absolute (one French writer said the English king wasn't really one, since his power wasn't absolute).

Even today, of course, we have the problem of judging the legitimacy of established governments, and the world has cried out against more than one trial of a dissident by a government that, de facto, was the "legitimate" one.

It appears, however one cuts it, that there are at least two ways of deciding if Marie-Antoinette was wrongly judged. One is simply - as some here clearly do - to say that the regime judging herself was itself illegitimate. A dicey proposition since, messy (and often murderous) as they were, and often bullied by the mob, many of the ephemeral Revolutionary governments were duly elected - i.e., in modern terms, clearly legitimate. (Not to mention that it would suggest that every government that came since, including the current one, is illegitimate.) The other is to look at the judicial facts in the case and determine if another person, based on such evidence, would have been condemned.

As I've said, I don't know the answer to the latter, though it is, personally, the standard I would use (note that, in a general way, I'm opposed to capital punishment, but we're talking period law here). It does seem clear to me that IF it was demonstrated she was plotting with France's enemies (and bear in mind the common folk had a very real fear of being massacred by Austrian armies), then one can't really say she was, by the judicial standards of the time, wrongly beheaded. Saying that a democratically elected government was not legitimate and had no right to judge her at all is a slippery slope, to say the least.

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Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:16 pm
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Post Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?
Adrienne wrote:
Well whether or not you believe she was guilty of treason depends on whether you believe the revolutionary government was valid or not, and even then whether any acts she had committed or words she spoke were treasonous under those terms. Naturally, opinions whether they be personal, political or legal in this case will vary.

For me personally, no one ought to be beheaded, but this is a purely personal opinion and actually relates neither to my opinion of Antoinette's behaviour or of the revolution but to that modern concept of human rights and death penalties. In the particular case of Marie Antoinette, I question the validity of the revolutionary government and have severe reservations about the process of justice in place in France. Not to be equivocal at all, but obviously if you ask someone else (probably someone not belonging to this board) well versed in the subject but coming at it from the revolutionary perspective they could very likely give you clear legal and logical reason as to why the beheading was perfectly necessary and just.

This is, I think, a simple question with many very very complicated answers!

I agree with adrienne,there are many complicated answers

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Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:22 pm
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Post Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?
For me MA was, strictly speaking, guilty of treason if one recognizes the legitimacy of the revolutionary tribunal, because she sent compromizing letters to the foreign powers detailing troop movements and was also aware and encouraged the Brunswick manifesto. However one has to remember that this evidence was not to hand when she was under trial! It was found only later. This goes to show that she was condemned even before entering that courtroom. As far as whether we could judge her guilty of treason from our standpoint today, I would say no because she was fighting against a system which she considered illegal and usurpative: in other words the King was the only legitimate power for her. What is more these new rulers had directly threatened her life and that of her family. One could draw a parallel perhaps with those Germans who rose up against Hitler:do we consider that they were guilty of treason, even if their actions may have cost the lives of their compatriots?

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Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:21 pm
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Post Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?
baron de batz wrote:
I would say no because she was fighting against a system which she considered illegal and usurpative: in other words the King was the only legitimate power for her. What is more these new rulers had directly threatened her life and that of her family. One could draw a parallel perhaps with those Germans who rose up against Hitler:do we consider that they were guilty of treason, even if their actions may have cost the lives of their compatriots?


Exactly. Vive la reine!

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Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:03 pm
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Post Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?
Of course, Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded ! So was her husband the king. They only tried to protect their people against this seditious assembly that had taken the power. Those rebels once décided they would rule the country, and forced the king to accept their constitution. What was the legality of this ?

Moreover, those people were unable to maintain peace and to bring happiness to France. They could not get along with each others, for each individual was too ambitious. They were so afraid of the European monarchies that they threw France into a terrible war that would last for years and years. So, Marie Antoinette was worried and felt concerned. She considered it was her duty as a queen to try to save her country. That's why she called the European ambassies for help. That's why she hoped the Austrians troups would win, so that peace could be restored in France.

There is no treason in her behaviour. On the contrary, there would be if she wouldn't do anything to help.

And, last but not least, she was condamned witout real judjment. This trial was just a maskerade, and she was felt guilty without any proof. Only suspicions. She wouldn't be the only one, this awful court would practice summary trials, so that thousands of people were executed without real judjment.

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Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:50 am
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Post Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?
Pimprenelle wrote:
Of course, Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded ! So was her husband the king. They only tried to protect their people against this seditious assembly that had taken the power. Those rebels once décided they would rule the country, and forced the king to accept their constitution. What was the legality of this ?

It's so difficult, trying to offer a balanced perspective on history, combating myths while at the same time avoiding alternate exaggerations.

In this case, I certainly don't want to defend the sloppy and increasingly murderous Revolutionary governments. But nor can I sit with equanimity and see attempts to replace centuries of absolute monarchy with popular rule as (without qualification) "sedition". By that standard, both current American and French governments are the offspring of sedition, which of course by some definitions they are, and even proudly so: "If this be treason, then let us make the most of it". But just as Rosa Parks needed to break a law to start the American Civil Rights movement, one could not, by definition, change the existing regime in France without violating the existing laws.

Anyone who has read the details - and I have read a great deal - of the daily life in France under the Old Regime knows that system badly needed to be changed. Many people (not all foreigners) knew it as well. Somewhere years ago I found a comment by the Czar of Russia, visiting early in the century, that he was worried for the French because he foresaw a great upheaval resulting from the inequalities he observed. Even by standards of neighboring monarchies, that of France was particularly absolute and in many ways abusive.

When the Revolution turned as awfully bad as it did, more than one writer was like Arther Young, whose travels in France coincidentally began just before the Revolution then came full in the middle of its appearance:
http://books.google.com/books?id=NqoMAA ... r+Young%22
When he first goes to France, Young is horrified by the inequalities, the waste of good land (because the lords who owned it were all in Paris, and no one else could work it) and the excessive division between the classes (he contrasts the easy relationship of an English country squire with his farmers with the sharp division in France). But then, as the Revolution descends into pure madness, he is equally horrified by that.

So what SHOULD have happened? Well, many people I think hoped for a graceful transition into a constitutional monarchy like England's - bearing in mind that England, albeit with less wholesale destruction, had also beheaded a king. But even such a moderate transition, by the standards of the time, would have been sedition.

To put it another way, one does indeed have to break a few eggs - for instance, outmoded laws - to make an omelet. The problem in France is they trashed the whole kitchen.

Either way, however, monarchy's place in the system would have been "illegally" pushed aside. That was kind of the point.

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Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:58 pm
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