Marie Antoinette Online Forum
http://forum.marie-antoinette.org/

Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?
http://forum.marie-antoinette.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=1543
Page 5 of 5

Author:  Ludy [ Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?

By the way, I did answer about the WWII, but given the length of the reply I renounced posting on here.

Mind you, I could do that, it would be a kind of "chant du cygne" before my envetual leave.



Why do you think the assemblee was not legitimate ? As far as I know it stemmed from the Third Estate -which had definitely been elected.

Author:  Délicate fleur [ Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?

Ludy, why do you have to eventually leave? What has happened to spark a dramatic statement? I know you sometimes feel you have the lone opinion on certain subjects, but that is what makes good conversation - difference of opinion! :angel12:

Author:  Ludy [ Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?

Oh thank you very much for this nice statement ! I am very attached to this forum. I guess I was not very serious when I wrote that. Unfortunately, I am a bit paranoid as a person, to say the least. :(


No wonder I feel close to people like Robespierre !

Author:  Ludy [ Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?

By the way, Baron, why do you think that those judges were not legitimate ?

Those judges were elected ! Nowadays judges are not ! So in many ways, the judges of that time were more legitimate that our magistrates.


I believe that the election of judges exist only in the US now. I would not say this is a good system, but this is certainly a democratic one.

Author:  baron de batz [ Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?

Well I did actually say that they represented the "Assemblée nationale" but the whole problem was that assemblée itself, as you well know, became less and less democratic as the Jacobins managed to exile or kill all opposing views within it.

Author:  Ludy [ Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?

In 1792 the National Assembly was elected through universal suffrage. The French will have to wait until 1848 to be granted the universal suffrage again. 1793-1792 was in fact a very democratic period.

Author:  Ludy [ Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?

baron de batz wrote:
Well I did actually say that they represented the "Assemblée nationale" but the whole problem was that assemblée itself, as you well know, became less and less democratic as the Jacobins managed to exile or kill all opposing views within it.


I do not understand ? Who are "they" ?

My points was :

1° The judges were elected
2° There was universal suffrage.


So basically, the political system was extremely democratic. My point is not that democracy is necessarily a good thing ! But it sounds to me like a common place to say that they were not legitimate. Why do you think they were not ? They were, by all means ! And certainly more that Marie-Antoinette or any monarch before them.

Author:  Lilly [ Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?

Ludy wrote:
I guess I was not very serious when I wrote that.


I am glad that you were not serious Ludy.

Author:  Ludy [ Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?

Thanks a lot, Lilly ! It's very nice to hear !

Author:  baron de batz [ Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?

Ludy wrote:

1793-1792 was in fact a very democratic period.


Come on! :o

Superficially or strictly speaking maybe, but the undercurrents controlling the beginning of the Terror and the Assemblée were far from democratic!

Irf we reason like that, then in a sense Hitler's Germany was a democracy or Putin's Russia is a democracy...but we all know that opposition was not tolerated.

Author:  Ludy [ Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?

baron de batz wrote:
Ludy wrote:


Irf we reason like that, then in a sense Hitler's Germany was a democracy or Putin's


????


Putin's Russia is not a democracy by our standards, but if we were back just sixty years ago it would have been considered as one. De Gaulle's regime was anything bu a democracy either. Anyway, your comparison is irrelevant because it is anachronical. And your comparison with Hitler is irrelevant since there was no elections after he came to power.

I suspect you fall back on those comparisons because you have no arguments whatsoever to justify the "illegitimacy" of the National Assembly. You are clearly grasping at straws, because if you compare with the other regimes at that time, it was certainly the most democratic one. And I am not saying that democracy is necessarily a good thing : Hitler was elected, that is true, so was Pétain (by the Parliament) and de Gaulle was not.

But we are talking about legitimacy : I am sorry to say that France was the only country to implement universal suffrage at that time. So by the standards of the time, it was incredibly democratic. Maybe a few cantons in Switzerland could rival with that.

Author:  baron de batz [ Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?

Ludy wrote:

and I am sorry to say that France was the only country to implement universal suffrage.

Universal suffrage being....?

Women voted?

Please clarify what the voting system was, how the Assemblée was elected and who got the right to vote, because I had heard that womens' voting rights actually diminished under the Revolution compared to the Ancien Régîme?

Author:  Ludy [ Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?

I trust you culture is vast enough, and that you are aware that women were not allowed to vote anywhere until the XX century.


I suggest we stick to relevants comparisons i.e comparisons with existing regimes at that time.


I would still like to be enlightened about the illegitimacy of the National assemblee by comparison with used to be, such as the Parliament as it was organised under Louis XVI or the way other political regimes worked.

Author:  Ludy [ Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?

baron de batz wrote:
Ludy wrote:



Please clarify what the voting system was, how the Assemblée was elected and who got the right to vote, because I had heard that womens' voting rights actually diminished under the Revolution compared to the Ancien Régîme?



The voting system was universal for men, until the 1795 constitution. That is all there is to it.

What do you know about the vote of women before the Revolution ? Do you mean in the context of the General Estates ?

That may be so but let us remember that the General Estates were summoned only if the King was willing to summon them. Before the 1789 Estates, they had not been summoned after Louis XIII's reign, under Marie Medicis's regency. Hardly democratic.
As for the Parliament, it had no political right whatsoever and was dismembered under Louis XV, before Louis XVI called it back.

Can you expand on what you "heard" about women's vote under the monarchy ?

Author:  baron de batz [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone think that Marie Antoinette was wrongly beheaded.?

Yes I will check and get back to you on that.

Page 5 of 5 All times are UTC
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/