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Marie Antoinette's lover
http://forum.marie-antoinette.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1163
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Author:  baron de batz [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's lover

:D You must be right Pim....(I see you read my late night posts on the Boudoir! :lol: )

Michèle Morgan's blue eyes obviously blurred my judgement!

But I still stick to my theory about these two....even if its based on personal interpretation. After all historians do much the same!

Author:  Pimprenelle [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's lover

Unfortunately, they do ! To begin with Alma Söderjhelm, however so often quoted and quoted again... And they apply nowadays psychological standards to XVIIIth century, a queen of France and an Habsburg archduchess. They sheould better rely on actual sources.

Author:  baron de batz [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's lover

Thérèse wrote:

Baron, we have gone over this so many times on this forum, in detail on other threads. I fail to see the reason to have another thread on this topic. Perhaps you have unlimited time to go over this again and again, dear sir, but I do not.

So sorry to have wasted your time! 8) But I've got the answer, next time just don't post a reply. Brilliant huh? :lol:

Please note that I didn't start this "new" thread, and as I am not a moderator I can't clear up here, so I just got sucked in to this new but old argument.

Thérèse wrote:

(How difficult it would have been for her to entertain Count Fersen, when she was hardly ever alone.):

So you believe that Fersen did not see the Queen alone in 1792 when he came back to Paris, the "resté là" visit?

Author:  baron de batz [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's lover

Pim wrote:

They should better rely on actual sources.

But what are actual sources Pim? Memorialists? The letters?

Many of those I have read and bring me to these conclusions!!

Author:  baron de batz [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's lover

Pim wrote:

Where did you read Marie Antoinette was disgusted by Louis XVI ?

I haven't as such, but please refer to Joseph's letter of remontrances to the Queen. He intimated that she may well have been, although that may have been part of his shock her out of it treatment. Personally I believe it possible that she was, or atl least turned off big time.

Author:  Therese [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's lover

baron de batz wrote:
Thérèse wrote:

Baron, we have gone over this so many times on this forum, in detail on other threads. I fail to see the reason to have another thread on this topic. Perhaps you have unlimited time to go over this again and again, dear sir, but I do not.

So sorry to have wasted your time! 8) But I've got the answer, next time just don't post a reply. Brilliant huh? :lol:

Please note that I didn't start this "new" thread, and as I am not a moderator I can't clear up here, so I just got sucked in to this new but old argument.

Thérèse wrote:

(How difficult it would have been for her to entertain Count Fersen, when she was hardly ever alone.):

So you believe that Fersen did not see the Queen alone in 1792 when he came back to Paris, the "resté là" visit?


I believe he saw her, as he said, but that does not mean he slept in her bed. No one knows for certain if the scribbled out words were "resté là." That is only a theory. Anyway, within hours Fersen was back in the arms of his mistress, Mrs. Sullivan.

I am not responding to this thread anymore, since this is all material covered elsewhere.

Author:  Pimprenelle [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's lover

May I kindly request everybody to remain cool and polite to each other ? Tanks a lot...

Baron, there are many things that could be discussed, and Therese is right, they were, all over, already. :roll:

Anyhow, I'll add some little comments about your posts :

Quote:
I haven't as such, but please refer to Joseph's letter of remontrances to the Queen. He intimated that she may well have been, although that may have been part of his shock her out of it treatment. Personally I believe it possible that she was, or atl least turned off big time.

You are allowed to a personal interpretation, everybody is, after all ! :lol: But let's notice that you mention that Marie Antoinette could be disgusted by Louis' obesity. Although, this letter is dated 1777, and Louis was not fat yet at this time.

Quote:
But what are actual sources Pim? Memorialists? The letters?

Many of those I have read and bring me to these conclusions!!

This has been discussed many times already, baron ! Anyhow, if you want to get back to this once more... :roll: When we have questions about a person, I think the best thing to do is to question this person first of all. We are lucky to have Antoinette's letters to Fersen. If we read them, we find nothing but political considerations and, sometimes, friendly words. Nothing more substancial, I am afraid.

Then, we can read memorialists. Saint Priest is often quoted by those who, like you, think there was something going on between the queen of France and Fersen. However, it could be interesting to remember that Saint Priest's source was his wife, who was Fersen's mistress ! :roll:

You could also quote Madame de Boigne... but please don't forget she was not born back then ! :roll:

On the other hand, we have Madame Campan and Mercy, who are more reliable, aren't they ? None of them even mention Fersen's name, so that Zweig was obliged to imagine this "silence conspiration" ! :lol:

Quote:
So you believe that Fersen did not see the Queen alone in 1792 when he came back to Paris, the "resté là" visit?

Indeed, I must admit that I wonder about this "resté là" visit. It was reported by Alma Söderjhelm, but alas Madame Söderjhelm made more than one mistake, that make her analysis less credible.

First of all, how could she read "resté là" ? :shock: She just affirms these words were deleted, when a little more explanation would have been useful, don't you think so ? :shock:

However, the chronology of Fersen's visit to the tuileries is not clear at all. All that is certain is that he did not meet the king on this evening. But where did he go, following "his ordinary way" ? To the tuileries ? To the Craufurds ? And why would he mention that "her apartment" was "wonderful" if he was in Marie Antoinette's place, that he perfectly knew, having been there often and often for preparing the flight to Montmedy ?

So, yes, I have great doubts about this story...

Author:  baron de batz [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's lover

Thérèse wrote:

I am not responding to this thread anymore, since this is all material covered elsewhere.

You see, you decided to take my advice after all :lol:

I am not saying that Fersen slept with the Queen or not. We don't know, but suddenly you are saying that despite the incredible surveillance at the Tuileries Fersen did probably see the Queen that night. That is already quite an incredible thing to happen to a reigning Queen.

Pim wrote:

May I kindly request everybody to remain cool and polite to each other ? Tanks a lot...

Considering that I was just sitting and doing what we all do here, reflecting on the Queen and her life, I think I was a pretty innocent victim of a seemingly irritated Thérèse, who out of the blue started complaining about the fact that I was wasting her time. As far as I know these are forums for open exchanges, and I think I have the right to air my opinions. After all as Rose Bertin said 'Il y a de nouveau que ce qui est oublié" and that goes for all our discussions here too, an eternal recommencement. :D

Author:  baron de batz [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's lover

Pim wrote:

You are allowed to a personal interpretation, everybody is, after all ! But let's notice that you mention that Marie Antoinette could be disgusted by Louis' obesity. Although, this letter is dated 1777, and Louis was not fat yet at this time.

I'm sorry Pim, I'm not a complete amateur at this!in my post I did not directly link obesity and the disgust that Joseph writes about . I know full well that the King was not yet obese at this time. The physical aversion (better than disgust) may have had other causes, we don't know. But her brother talks about it and he never talked lightly it seems, he researched and documented many things before writing that letter. I think he may well have had cause and reason to think this of his sister.

Author:  Pimprenelle [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's lover

I agree with you on that point. Obviously, Marie Antoinette was not enthusiastic about marital relations !

However, we don't know the reasons why she was not. Joseph makes no comments about his brother in law physical appearence. And he does not add that some Swedish courtier was far more convenient to his sister's tastes ! :lol:

Anyway, baron, I perfectly understand Therese's point of view. This Fersen subject has been discussed so often ! :roll: What else could we add ?

Author:  baron de batz [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's lover

Could we not say that Pim about everything we write here?.....sigh

Author:  Marija Vera [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's lover

I will say this – I think that it was quite possible that Marie Antoinette had love relationship with Fersen but we will never know, still I think it happened. Anyway most of the subjects are connected one to the other and it’s hard to avoid writing something you had already wrote or returning to the previous subject. Personally, I don’t see anything wrong in that.

Author:  Pimprenelle [ Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Marie Antoinette's lover

Quote:
Could we not say that Pim about everything we write here?.....sigh

Oh, no, baron, I don't think so ! About numerous matters we discover new informations, or read new analysis in recently published books...

Regarding this Fersen legend, nothing new has been published or added by scholars since years and years.

And the available matter we had already discussed on this board :
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=217&start=315

See ? :D 22 pages of passionate debates about this dubious relationship ! What else relevant could still be added to 22 pages ? :lol:

If you are more specifically interested in Axel von Fersen's life, please open this door :
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=997&start=60

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