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Relationship to Mary Queen of Scots
http://forum.marie-antoinette.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1902
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Author:  Maggie [ Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Relationship to Mary Queen of Scots

I remember reading somewhere that Marie Antoinette was a great great something grandaughter of the unfortunate Scottish Queen who was also beheaded. It may have been in my books about the Hapsburgs or Nancy Mitford's gorgeous book about Louis XIV the Sun King which I cannot find as my home is house to over 3,000 books. I am now surrounded with history books trying to find what I am looking for, can anybody enlighten me on this. If my memory serves me correctly Marie Antoinette descends from a daughter of James VII of Scotland (2nd of England), possibly the Princess of Palatine, and of course James VII was the great great great grandson of Mary Queen of Scots. James was kicked off the throne of Great Britain and spent the rest of his life in the court of Louis XIV, enjoying life enormously. I think the relationship of Marie Antoinette and Mary was through her father but not too sure until I can get my hands on the books I want.

Author:  Drake Rlugia [ Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Relationship to Mary Queen of Scots

Mary, Queen of Scots granddaughter, Elizabeth of Bohemia was the mother of Charles I Louis, the Elector Palatine. His daughter, Liselotte of the Palatinate (who you mention) was married to the Duke of Orléans, Philippe I. Their daughter, Elizabeth Charlotte married Leopold, the Duke of Lorraine, who was the father of Francis Stephen and Marie-Antoinette's father.

Interestingly, Louis XVI could also count his descent from Mary, Queen of Scots. Philippe I's wife before Liselotte of the Palatinate had been Henriette Anne, the daughter of Charles I of England (and brother of Elizabeth of Bohemia). Henriette Anne's daughter who married the Duke of Savoy was the mother of Marie-Adelaide, the Dauphine of France and mother of Louis XV.

Author:  Maggie [ Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Relationship to Mary Queen of Scots

Thank you very much for that information. I finally found Nancy Mitford's book on Louis XIV and found that indeed Louis XVI is a direct descendent of Henrietta of England and she was the daughter of Charles I of Britain.

Author:  baron de batz [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Relationship to Mary Queen of Scots

Two tragic French Queens linked by blood...in both senses of the word.

Author:  Maggie [ Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Relationship to Mary Queen of Scots

Ah my dear Baron Mary Queen of Scots grandson Charles I was also beheaded. It seems like a dangerous thing to be a monarch.

Author:  baron de batz [ Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Relationship to Mary Queen of Scots

It was at the time. Now its' pretty plain sailing.

Author:  annies sis [ Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Relationship to Mary Queen of Scots

I am a very strong defender of Elizabeth I (as I am with Antoinette) and feel no compassion for Mary Queen of Scots. I don't think that Elizabeth enjoyed killing her cousin, but it was for the better of the English nation. Thoughts?

Author:  Lilly [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Relationship to Mary Queen of Scots

Yes, I do have some thoughts on that...

Seroiusly? No compassion for a Queen who sought refuge with a blood relative and was then imprisoned for 19 years with not so much as one face-to-face meeting with her cousin who locked her up? Don't get me wrong, I also love Elizabeth and think her a great Queen, BUT...this episode - her beheading her own cousin and her feigned reaction to Mary Queen of Scots death, After she (Elizabeth) signed her death warrant was just a little too too much. No one ever claimed that Elizabeth "enjoyed" what she had done, but she did do it. And since Elizabeth left her throne to Mary's son, the Stuarts, please elaborate how killing his mother was "for the better of the English nation"? As great as Elizabeth was, this deed was beneath her.

Author:  Délicate fleur [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Relationship to Mary Queen of Scots

I agree. Although unavoidable in the context of its time, politics + family is a terrible thing.

Author:  Drake Rlugia [ Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Relationship to Mary Queen of Scots

You have to keep in mind that Elizabeth was Protestant: Mary was Catholic and a threat to her throne. Upon the death of Elizabeth's sister in 1558, Henry II of France made a point of proclaiming his son François and Mary as the rightful King and Queen of England and had the arms of England impaled with those of France and Scotland.

In the eyes of the English Catholics, Elizabeth was illegitimate; no matter what acts Henry VIII passed, they believed the break with Rome to be nothing more than heresy: Edward's reign could at least be legitimated by the fact that both Anne Boleyn and Catherine of Aragon were both dead by time Henry married Jane Seymour, but to the English, Elizabeth was a bastard. Her father had married Anne Boleyn whilst Catherine still lived, and although the English church granted him a divorce, it didn't matter to the Catholics who held allegiance to the Pope: only the Pontiff in Rome could annul a marriage.

To the English Catholics, Mary Stuart was their rightful Queen, not the bastard Elizabeth. Elizabeth was always wary of her: she refused to meet with her not only because of the dangers, but because Mary refused to ratify the Treaty of Edinburgh that Elizabeth had signed with the Scottish Lords of the Congregation in 1560: it provided French troops to leave Scotland, for the King of France François II cease using the English arms, along with recognizing Elizabeth as Queen of England. Elizabeth made this a condition for recognizing Mary as her eventual heir, and even as late as 1587 Mary refused to sign it.

Mary returned to Scotland a virtual foreigner. She had been raised in France, she was Catholic, whilst the majority of her country had embraced Protestantism and desired closer ties with England and a break from France. Mary simply didn't have the political acumen that Elizabeth did: she wasn't able to avoid the turbulent politics of Scotland and ultimately lost her throne.

It was also very easy for Elizabeth to leave her throne to Mary's son. The boy had been proclaimed King in 1567 not long after his birth and was raised by a variety of Scottish Regents, not his mother. He grew up a staunch Protestant and as such could not be used as a symbol against Elizabeth as Mary could. I do not think Elizabeth wished to kill Mary: she had deep regret about doing it, because Elizabeth believed highly in the rights of sovereigns and doing something such as executing one was against her beliefs. But for her more realistic advisers such as Cecil, executing the deposed Queen was the best choice they could make.

Elizabeth was never rash in her actions: indeed, you see in much of her reign that she was indecisive, even overtly cautious. I think Cecil owes more blame to Mary's execution than Elizabeth; I'm sure Elizabeth would've been content to simply keep her locked up... but she was just too powerful a symbol to the Catholics (who Elizabeth was initially lenient upon until the Babbington Plot) to let live.

Author:  annies sis [ Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Relationship to Mary Queen of Scots

After reviewing this post, I realized that perhaps I was not as clear as I intended to be with my opinion of Mary and Elizabeth....

May I begin with the fact that I come from a VERY distant family, who has little compassion for one another, so it has always been hard for me to sympathize for destructive relatives, as I view Mary to Elizabeth. Therefore, I have a hard time "sympathizing" with Mary. That being said, I understand where you are coming from, Lilly, with a person seeking mercy that should come naturally with family.

I just have a hard time agreeing with a person who attempted to kill their family (aka, Mary attempting to steal the English throne). Opinions?

Author:  Lilly [ Sun Nov 14, 2010 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Relationship to Mary Queen of Scots

I am veering off the original topic of Mary Queen of Scots relationship to Marie Antoinette, but again, I must respond......
[
quote="annies sis"]so it has always been hard for me to sympathize for destructive relatives, as I view Mary to Elizabeth.[/quote]
Wasn't it Elizabeth who was ultimately destructive to Mary?

annies sis wrote:
(aka, Mary attempting to steal the English throne).

A "claim" to the throne is a different thing than an attempt to "steal" the throne. Mary Queen of Scots was so wrapped up in her own problems that she never "attempted to steal the English throne" - she never got an army together and invaded England - she simply turned to her fellow monarch and cousin Elizabeth for help. If others wanted to see her on the English throne - they may have made attempts on her behalf, but that is not the same as her personally taking steps to put herself on the English throne, which she did not do.
Yes, a plot to put Mary on the throne was the pretext of the signing of her death warrant - but she had been imprisoned for 19 years and who can blame her if she probably would have done anything at that point to get herself free. This sanctioned murder by Elizabeth only served the purpose of putting an end to any further claims that anyone could make on behalf of Mary. - In the absence of her own heirs, Elizabeth's throne still went to the Stuarts.
Drake Rlugia wrote:
you see in much of her reign that she was indecisive,

I do not agree with this statement at all.... Louis XVI was indecisive -
Elizabeth?? -Not so much.

Author:  annies sis [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Relationship to Mary Queen of Scots

Am I wrong, but wasnt the Babington Plot a threat by Mary to Elizabeth?

Author:  Lilly [ Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Relationship to Mary Queen of Scots

Am I wrong that Mary had been jailed for 19 years by Elizabeth at that time? Am I wrong that Elizabeth signed Mary's death warrant and had Mary beheaded?

My point......and I'm just sayin......This deed was beneath Elizabeth. She was firmly enthroned - She was a great Queen.

Elizabeth did much more harm to Mary than Mary ever did Elizabeth.

Author:  annies sis [ Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Relationship to Mary Queen of Scots

I do agree with you that Elizabeth sure waited far to long to act on Mary, but I still view Mary as a threat to Elizabeth.

Let's maybe just cool down a little, though. :lol: This discussion seems to be heading down a rather angry road :)

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