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 About the French...... 
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Royalty
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Post Re: About the French......
It is very true that the French and English had a centuries long rival going on! Their thrones had been intertwined for so long and they were constantly fighting over land. William the Conqueror came from Normandy, France - to the English throne. Eleanor of Aquitaine bought vast French lands under the English crown by marring Henry II of England. Richard the Lionhearted was heir to her beloved duchy of Aquitaine, among others. So there was a constant fight over what belonged to who. There are many more examples. These kings frequently claimed each others thrones. It's what got Mary Queen of Scots her head cut off!


Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:47 pm
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Post Re: About the French......
The French were allies of the American colonies during the American Revolution, and there were very warm relations between the two countries then. George Washington and LaFayette were close friends; the square across from the White House is named for LaFayette. Some Americans even looked upon the French Revolution with indulgence, because they identified with the desire for liberty. LaFayette later gave Washington the keys to the Bastille.

America has come to the aid of France in two World Wars, so to some extent, Americans feel that the French owe them some appreciation. However, the French often come across as haughty and arrogant to Americans, and in addition, they have in many cases been rude to Americans traveling in France.

As a result, many Americans feel the French despise them.


Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:39 am
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Post Re: About the French......
The reason that the French were willing to help the American revolutionaries was due to the centuries old rivalry between the two countries. They were totally into helping stick it to England (and of course gain some territory too). Where do you think France got the idea for it's own Revolution? What year did LaFayette give George Washington the keys to the Bastille? As you know - the Bastille was torn down by revolutionaries on July 14,1789.
Many Americans feel that America's help in World War II paid France back for it's help in America's independence, thus evening the score.


Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:40 am
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Post Re: About the French......
Lilly wrote:
It's what got Mary Queen of Scots her head cut off!


I think there was more to her execution than that......the religious aspect being the main thing. England would never have accepted a Catholic monarch at that time. Anyway to get back on topic a bit more, Mary Queen of Scots claiming the English throne (she did have a valid claim through her paternal grandmother) was instilled in her by her ambitious French uncles and French King when she moved to the French court as a child, as it would have meant her being Queen of Scotland, France AND England. So I agree Lilly, the 3 thrones had been intertwined for hundreds of years.

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"It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom, for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

From the Declaration of Arbroath (Scottish Declaration of Independence), 1320.


Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:47 am
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Post Re: About the French......
Her claiming to be heir to the English throne was the pretext Elizabeth used to execute Mary Queen of Scots. Religion also surely had a part as you are correct about a catholic not being on England's throne. It is also interesting how Elizabeth was a little jealous that her cousin may be better looking than her - although she never met her to see for herself. The Tudors seem to like to execute anyone with a claim to their throne.


Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:01 pm
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Post Re: About the French......
I don't know the exact year that LaFayette gave the keys to the Bastille to George Washington, but obviously it must have been in the 1790s. The keys hang on the staircase at Mount Vernon.

Mary, Queen of Scots, was plotting to overthrow Elizabeth. She was executed for that reason. It was not a pretext. Elizabeth was tricked into signing the order and the execution was carried out without her knowledge. She was desolate when she discovered it had happened. Elizabeth did not want to execute a fellow queen because that would establish a precedent for executing monarchs, including her.


Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:55 pm
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Post Re: About the French......
DreamersRose wrote:
Elizabeth was tricked into signing the order and the execution was carried out without her knowledge.


How very convenient..........I don't believe that for a minute. She knew full well that Mary would be found guilty (the "trial" was staged) and she also knew the punishment for treason. And charging her with treason? She was NOT Elizabeth's subject. Also, there were questions about the validity of the Casket Letters and it's thought that parts of the letters - funnily enough the important parts that led to Mary's conviction - were forged. It was all a very "convenient" way for the English and their Queen to rid themselves of their captive of 19 or so years who just happened to have a very strong claim to Elizabeth's throne and who just happened to be Catholic!!!

Lilly wrote:
The Tudors seem to like to execute anyone with a claim to their throne.


She was her father's daughter alright lol.

Lilly wrote:
Where do you think France got the idea for it's own Revolution?


It's quite sad really that the French supported the American Revolution with such fervour and it all went so horribly wrong with their own.

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"It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom, for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

From the Declaration of Arbroath (Scottish Declaration of Independence), 1320.


Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:20 pm
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Post Re: About the French......
Mary Queen of Scots was executed because of the claim she made for Elizabeth's throne. At the point in time when she was executed, there was a plot to help her escape which was exposed. This is what got her executed AT THAT TIME. Elizabeth had no reason to keep a fellow monarch jailed for 19 years unless they had claimed her throne. Mary sought her help initially, then Elizabeth jailed her. The bottom line was the claiming of the English throne. And the later saddness over being "tricked" - oh please!!!!!! Crocodile tears - she was well aware she had signed the death warrant!
Elizabeth did not want to know about the execution till it had been done. Too bad she did not build herself a theater like Marie Antoinette and perform on stage! -- Although the world was Elizabeth's stage!


Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:59 pm
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Post Re: About the French......
Thank you for the info on the keys to the Bastille - I did not know they ended up with Washington - what a great little peice of knowledge!


Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:58 pm
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Post Re: About the French......
Maybe "tricked" was the wrong word. It was mine. It was the Babington plot, not the casket letters, that doomed Mary. Elizabeth's rages were well-known. You should also keep in mind that although Mary was not a British subject, she had a legitimate claim to the throne. In addition, anyone in a country, foreign or native, is subject to the laws and courts of that country.

From the Web site: http://www.elizabethi.org/us/queenofscots/

"She [Mary, Queen of Scots] was found guilty of treason, and condemned to death. But despite this judgment by Elizabeth's judges, Elizabeth could not bring herself to sign her cousin's death warrant. The very thought of executing a crowned sovereign terrified her, and the whole matter affected her health profoundly. In the end she reluctantly signed the warrant. Her ministers secretly rushed through the execution, and Elizabeth was not told until it was over. Mary was executed at Fotheringay Castle in the February of 1587.

"Elizabeth's fury was tremendous. She had her private secretary, William Davidson, arrested, and turned against those of her Council who had taken part in the execution, even her old trusted servant, William Cecil. She threatened to have Davidson hanged, saying that she never intended the execution to take place, only to use the warrant as a threat to stop Mary from taking part in such activities again. No one really believed her, and few have believed her since. Frightening as it was, her anger receded, and in time she was reunited with Cecil. Davidson was released from imprisonment, but was never returned to his post as secretary."


Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:12 am
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Post Re: About the French......
DreamersRose wrote:
I don't know the exact year that LaFayette gave the keys to the Bastille to George Washington, but obviously it must have been in the 1790s. The keys hang on the staircase at Mount Vernon.

Mary, Queen of Scots, was plotting to overthrow Elizabeth. She was executed for that reason. It was not a pretext. Elizabeth was tricked into signing the order and the execution was carried out without her knowledge. She was desolate when she discovered it had happened. Elizabeth did not want to execute a fellow queen because that would establish a precedent for executing monarchs, including her.

DreamersRose wrote:
Maybe "tricked" was the wrong word. It was mine. It was the Babington plot, not the casket letters, that doomed Mary. Elizabeth's rages were well-known. You should also keep in mind that although Mary was not a British subject, she had a legitimate claim to the throne. In addition, anyone in a country, foreign or native, is subject to the laws and courts of that country.

From the Web site: http://www.elizabethi.org/us/queenofscots/

"She [Mary, Queen of Scots] was found guilty of treason, and condemned to death. But despite this judgment by Elizabeth's judges, Elizabeth could not bring herself to sign her cousin's death warrant. The very thought of executing a crowned sovereign terrified her, and the whole matter affected her health profoundly. In the end she reluctantly signed the warrant. Her ministers secretly rushed through the execution, and Elizabeth was not told until it was over. Mary was executed at Fotheringay Castle in the February of 1587.

"Elizabeth's fury was tremendous. She had her private secretary, William Davidson, arrested, and turned against those of her Council who had taken part in the execution, even her old trusted servant, William Cecil. She threatened to have Davidson hanged, saying that she never intended the execution to take place, only to use the warrant as a threat to stop Mary from taking part in such activities again. No one really believed her, and few have believed her since. Frightening as it was, her anger receded, and in time she was reunited with Cecil. Davidson was released from imprisonment, but was never returned to his post as secretary."



Your second post corrects the first - Elizabeth did know full well and was not tricked - you don't sign a death warrant "never intending" the execution to take place, especially when it could happen as soon as the warrant was signed! Mary Queen of Scots claim to the English throne = treason = death.
No trickery - no ignorance of the execution.

So sorry I took this wayyyyy off topic!


Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:46 am
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Post Re: About the French......
DreamersRose wrote:
It was the Babington plot, not the casket letters, that doomed Mary


Oops, I meant the Babington Plot, that'll teach me to read over what I've typed before posting it :oops: but parts of the Babington Letters - the incriminating parts - are said to have been added on by Walsingham.

DreamersRose wrote:
You should also keep in mind that although Mary was not a British subject, she had a legitimate claim to the throne. In addition, anyone in a country, foreign or native, is subject to the laws and courts of that country.


There wasn't such a thing as "British" back then. Mary had been held captive for 19+ years so who can blame her for wanting to escape? She was being held against her will, why should she have waited passively. Mary was Elizabeth's EQUAL (it doesn't matter that she had abducated, she'd had no choice in that) Oh and don't forget that the English knew about the Babington Plot (when Mary agreed to participate in it it was just, as far as she was aware, a plot to help her escape) long before any references were made in the letters to assasinating Elizabeth (they intercepted the letters - how many opportunities did they have to add on whatever they liked) and could have put a stop to it then.......but they didn't, because it suited them to execute Mary - they'd even passed a law around this time saying that anyone caught plotting to assasinate Elizabeth (or something to that effect) would be a traitor. So like I said, it was all very convenient the way it worked out for Elizabeth in the end. Oh and I could also quote you numerous passages/quotes from biased websites contradicting what you say about Elizabeth and how she didn't want to execute Mary. And as your quote says, no-one really believed her and few have believed her since.....

But I've said more than enough on this and we are definitely off topic

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"It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom, for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

From the Declaration of Arbroath (Scottish Declaration of Independence), 1320.


Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:23 am
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Post Re: About the French......
To all of you who disagree with my intrepretation of English history, I ask you to look up Web sites that support your point of view and that you consider unbiased and post those references.

The thing that I object to the most is your tee-heeing and tittering ridicule of Elizabeth I. She was one of the greatest monarchs of England and deserves more than than ridicule. She acted according to the norms of her time.


Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:50 am
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Post Re: About the French......
DreamersRose wrote:
To all of you who disagree with my intrepretation of English history, I ask you to look up Web sites that support your point of view and that you consider unbiased and post those references.


What I meant, DreamersRose, was that most people generally tend to side with either Mary or Elizabeth, therefore it might be hard referencing unbiased sources. Hence why I didn't post any quotes as you could very easily (and correctly) say "oh but that's from a pro Mary website."

DreamersRose wrote:
The thing that I object to the most is your tee-heeing and tittering ridicule of Elizabeth I. She was one of the greatest monarchs of England and deserves more than than ridicule. She acted according to the norms of her time.


Yes you're right about her being a great monarch, but that doesn't mean she was "likeable", and just because you admire her, doesn't mean that I have to. With reference to "your tee-heeing and tittering ridicule of Elizabeth I", well I'm sorry that I can't put my views across as well as you, but it doesn't mean that your views are the right ones and better than mine. I'm afraid it's down to personal opinion at the end of the day.

And what a boring world it would be if we all agreed on everything!!! :)


Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:54 am
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Post Re: About the French......
There has been no ridiculing of Elizabeth - she was definitely considered to be a great monarch! I also love her - The difference in opinion does not mean that anyone is beeing ridiculed. I stand by what I said originally - which is that she was not "tricked" as you claimed and that she knew full well what was going on. Elizabeth was a very srtong woman and it is doubtful anyone ever "tricked " her. There are several good biographies out there.


Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:38 pm
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