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 A Woman more sinned against than sinning 
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Post A Woman more sinned against than sinning
How far and in what ways do you agree? :D


Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:16 am
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I don't think she sinned much at all but what was done to her was from the pit of hell.

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Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:08 pm
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It seems as though people were always working against her from all sides. For Example when she was Dauphine. She had DuBarry on one side and then Louis XVI's Aunts on the other. All Working against her in someway.
Sometimes it seems like she was doomed from the begining :cry:

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Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:40 pm
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Indeed, it looks like Antoinette had Fate against her from Day 1...she was after all born on the "Day of the Dead"... a giant earthquake killed people in Europe on the very day of her birth.
Afterwards, it seems like everything she did was misunderstood and used against her. She seems to have been the very first victim of "tabloid fame"...and mass production of written articles (of good or bad quality) had only just started!

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Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:45 am
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I heard someone sum it all up with " Marie Antoinette was the first victim of bad PR (public relations)" and I agree, i think that the publi didn't really know her, and hated her for being Austrian, beautiful, and happy. They were jealous, and wanted her to feel the pain that she felt. What good did it do for them what they did for her?? I feel her life was so frolicky and happy, then sooo tragic. just tragic.


Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:00 am
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Austria was the first enemy of France, even if an alliance was signed in 1756...,but French kept a resentment towards Marie-Antoinette who came from this country. :?

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Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:44 am
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Post no sins
I don't think she "sinned" either, but I do think she made political mistakes - and not projecting a good image, which with her charm and grace would have been possible had she worked at it, was one of the big ones.


Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:23 pm
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Quote:
I don't think she "sinned" either, but I do think she made political mistakes - and not projecting a good image, which with her charm and grace would have been possible had she worked at it, was one of the big ones.

Hey, Dorit ! You know I don't agree with that ! Whatever Marie Antoinette could do, it would have be considered wrong, anyway... She was the attacked person for she was the weakest link.

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Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:45 pm
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Dorit, I would be interested in knowing what you consider her political mistakes, could you expand on this...?

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Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:42 pm
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Post Marie Antoinette's mistakes
I think she did not cultivate the leading members of the aristocracy, did not work to project a positive image of a queen, allowed herself to appear as powerful without actually having power - so got the blame without the advantages. I do not count her early support of Joseph as a very big mistake - it didn't look good, but if she had cultivated her image carefully, it would have been forgiven, since she was so young.
Successful monarchs or consorts build a positive image, do not leave the ground to their enemies. for example, publicising her charity. appearing pious, which at the time was still a value.
As it was, it looks to me like she cultivated an image of light hearted fun - not a good image for a queen of France - and closeted herself with a narrow coterie, instead of opening herself to a broad coalition. having clear favorites instead of balancing factions almost always, in my knowledge, leads to a monarch being criticized and even hated.
She also seems to have taken her position towards ministers and other people based on personal dislikes and likes - turgot, Calonne, Rohan, etc' - rather than their policies. Of course, she was not king and not responsible for their nominations, but where she put in her influence, she doesn't seem to have considered the larger implications - and these were people running the country!!
again, nothing that you can say "morally bad". just "not politically intelligent".


Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:56 pm
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Antoinette was part of the Rousseau generation that abhorred hypocrisy. She would not play up to people who she felt were no good. She would not put on a pretense of exaggerated piety, although she sincerely gave an example of religious practice. Most of all, she would never have made much of her charities because the Gospel forbids publicizing one's good works. She helped people to please God and because it was the right thing to do, not to put on a show.

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Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:17 pm
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Post Reply
Dorit and Therese. I agree with yoiu both. From what I know Rousseau was very welcome at the the court of Louis XV. However he did not seem to be fasionable in the court of Louis XVI. There is a great deal of value to be said for both statements, in understanding court life at the time. Perhaps Therese you may fill the gap with Rousseau at court with Louis XVI and MA.

I could well be wrong, but feel sure you will correct me. In both statements. If rousseau had been more involved in the direction of the course of matters with his thoughts, the situation may have been different. I am saying this as I agree that was MA beliefs also. There were these kind of learned people around to be invloved with court at that time and question things that were going on and could be of assitence to Louis and MA.


Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:33 pm
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Post Rousseau and Louis XVI
as far as I know, Rousseau was not welcome in the court and after a certain point not in France because of his comments about religion. I am not sure his actual presence would have made a political difference - he was a great writer, but as a person, had... issues.
but on another note, his views had a strong influence not just on the queen. whether or not the king read him, some of the ideas Rousseau had influenced him too. first, the view that politics should be moral. Louis XVI strongly tried to inject a more moral approach to politics - by rejecting the idea of bankruptcy and standing on adhering to treaties and promises. Second, in his sentimental view of certain issues - for a taciturn, brusque man, some of his letters are pretty sentimental; and finally, in his emphasis on simplicity and natural behavior, which also fit well with the king's character.


Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:17 am
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Post Marie Antoinette and honesty
MA was indeed part of the rousseau generation, but she was also queen, daughter of an empress, and Maria Teresa never hesitated to be nice when it worked for her. she could give an appearance of frankness but could manipulate easily. Louis XV - and for that matter Louis XVI - were adept at not letting their views be known. so a distaste for hypocrisy was not the only cultural legacy around her.

and especially in relation to representation. Marie Antoinette was taught to be gracious. She was raised to represent. she did it remarkably well when she wanted, for example, on the trip from Austria to France. she had charm and grace and knew how to project an image. It's not a distaste for hypocrisy that made the young queen not fulfill her representative duties; it's being lazy and being spoilt, in the sense of not doing her chores, seeing all pleasure and little duty.


Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:21 am
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I know the queen admired Rousseau for his "back-to-nature" approach and once she even visited his grave.

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Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:22 am
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