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 A Woman more sinned against than sinning 
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That's interesting Thérèse, where was that do you know?

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Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:59 am
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I can't remember; I'll look it up in Wikipedia when I have time.

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Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:01 pm
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Have any of you ever considered MA as possibly a Saint? I know that this is a Catholic institution or practice, to canonise. The more I read about her the more she seems to be like a real martyr, a Queen or leader put to her death, Christlike in her last moments and in her persistent misfortune the object of "piété". It's just a thought I had, maybe since seeing her tomb and reading so much about her. I know these thoughts are not new, the Chapelle Expiatoire had a veritable MA cult following, that all but canonised her in their minds, the statue depicting her there is another proof of that, but more and more I start to understand why. She seems a figure of religious significance too...I would hazard a guess that Vidal thinks that too from the tea at trianon writings. There's something about that propensity to always do the thing that will make her suffer, the striving for joy and the finding pain at every corner.

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Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:40 pm
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Post Marie Antoinette as Saint?
I don't thinks he qualifies. (said as a complete non-catholic)
not every victim is a saint. Marie Antoinette did not suffer for her faith. She suffered for her position. (I'm leaving aside her personal qualifications - I would consider many saints to have problematic personality traits). plus, where are her three miracles?


Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:44 pm
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Well, it is a bit more complicated than that. Pope Pius VII said that Louis XVI could be considered as a martyr. He died for being a Christian monarch; he would not sacrifice his principles for political expediency. Marie-Antoinette, the same. She would not accept the Civil Constitution of the Clergy, even when Louis did initially. She immediately dismissed her confessor who had taken the oath. Both were hailed as "the martyr-king" and the "martyr-queen" during the Restoration.

As for miracles, none have been officially recorded, but that does not mean there have not been any.


Baron, you should write Mme. Vidal to find out what she really thinks....

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Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:45 pm
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The pope may have said that Louis XVI should be considered a martyr, but he was never canonized, and in my view, with a reason (and calling them "martyrs" under the restoration was very political, and very little religious - and not even original, the same was done for Charles I). the revolution was not an anti catholic movement. there were revolutionaries who were anti catholic; but the monarchy was not attacked for catholicism. It was a political attack.
Louis XVI died for political reasons. so did Marie Antoinette.
the monarchy in France was very connected to the church, but the two were far from identical. in the past, there were many conflicts and tangles between kings of France and popes. fighting for the monarchy is not fighting for the church.
Even the civil constitution for the clergy was not an attack on religion. it was a political attack on the pope - more an Henry VIII than Luther challenge. the goal was to make priests owe their allegiance to the state, not to the pope in Rome. (and to remind you, Louis XVI accepted it).

As to Marie Antoinette - regardless of her words in her final letter, do we have any evidence she was particularly religious throughout her life, or even her prisoners? Evidence in her letter of anything besides automatic adherence to the norm she grew up with? I don't remember any signs of devotion. dismissing her confessor for taking the oath can easily be interpreted as pique at the changes being forced on her.
I don't think you can make the case she died as a catholic martyr.


Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:55 pm
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doritmi wrote:
The pope may have said that Louis XVI should be considered a martyr, but he was never canonized, and in my view, with a reason (and calling them "martyrs" under the restoration was very political, and very little religious - and not even original, the same was done for Charles I). the revolution was not an anti catholic movement. there were revolutionaries who were anti catholic; but the monarchy was not attacked for catholicism. It was a political attack.
Louis XVI died for political reasons. so did Marie Antoinette.
the monarchy in France was very connected to the church, but the two were far from identical. in the past, there were many conflicts and tangles between kings of France and popes. fighting for the monarchy is not fighting for the church.
Even the civil constitution for the clergy was not an attack on religion. it was a political attack on the pope - more an Henry VIII than Luther challenge. the goal was to make priests owe their allegiance to the state, not to the pope in Rome. (and to remind you, Louis XVI accepted it).

As to Marie Antoinette - regardless of her words in her final letter, do we have any evidence she was particularly religious throughout her life, or even her prisoners? Evidence in her letter of anything besides automatic adherence to the norm she grew up with? I don't remember any signs of devotion. dismissing her confessor for taking the oath can easily be interpreted as pique at the changes being forced on her.
I don't think you can make the case she died as a catholic martyr.


I disagree. Remember that it took Joan of Arc 400 years to be canonized. You could also make the case that she died for political reasons, too. Like Louis and Antoinette, she also showed heroic virtue, faith, hope and charity and professed her Christian faith and loyalty to the magisterium of the church right until the end. Those are the things that are taken into account when a cause for beatification is introduced. It is true, no cause for beatification has yet been introduced for Louis XVI and Marie-Antoinette, and may never be, at least, not for a long time. Too much politics can hold up a cause for beatification for centuries.

The appellations of King and Queen Martyr were/are not without a theological basis, or else scrupulous Catholics like MTC would not have permitted their use.

And someone does not have to be perfect their whole life to be canonized. There are many saints who were notoriously naughty, but at one point, they reformed themselves. Marie-Antoinette showed nothing but heroic virtue, supernatural courage, and firmness of conviction at the end of her life, as is evident in her last letter. The end is what counts. It may not be enough to canonize her, but that is not for me to decide.

St. Thomas More was not canonized for several centuries, as well,due to political reasons.

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Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:51 pm
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