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One theory about their conjugal visits
http://forum.marie-antoinette.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1118
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Author:  Anouk [ Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: One theory about their conjugal visits

Saoirse wrote:
I don't think it matters which era you're from, that's really unfair and sad. :(


I think it was the only way they could do, whatever hard and troublesome it was. In those ages, in case of a royale couple it was normal doing their conjugal duties as soon as possible, though it sounds terrible. Otherwise of course I can agree with you, thier conjugal task was really mindless and cruel at their age...

Author:  reine [ Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: One theory about their conjugal visits

I agree, dear anouk :biggrin:

reine :angel6:

Author:  ShaktiValkyrie [ Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: One theory about their conjugal visits

Marija Vera wrote:
ShaktiValkyrie wrote:
Yes, I would agree. It's sad though, that's how one of my closets friends got pregnant. Basically he entered, she changed her mind and said no. He withdrew and that was that. He was real nice about it and they're still friends However, no condom was used and she ended up with a baby girl from that brief encounter. (turns out he's gay. He was trying not to be for along time, but when he heard she was pregnant, he came out. All are the better for it.)

:o


Ya, I know, it was all a bit Jerry Springer. LOL :)

Author:  winsan2 [ Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: One theory about their conjugal visits

Andre Castelot states clearly with sources that it was indeed a condition of phimosis which means the foreskin cannot be drawn painlessly back across the penis; the operation was indeed performed after Joseph's visit with obvious success. Prior to that Joseph writes his mother the Empress a very descriptive paragraph of the problem from LXVI's view. As the couple had no sex education and were shy and immature to boot they practiced what they thought was a complete sex act which took frank talks from Emperor Joseph to get them going in the right direction.

Phimosis is I believe common and handled by circumsion; a procedure slightly less involved than circumsion could correct it and I have no doubt that Louis rode to the hounds almost immediately although perhaps in a carriage rather than a saddle. :angel3:

Castelot's book has indexes and a bibliography--I really don't read much else and therefore believe I present accurate material. Thank you for hanging in here with me on this essay.

Author:  Délicate fleur [ Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: One theory about their conjugal visits

Pimprenelle wrote:
The problem with the phimosis story is that no operation record was found. On the contrary, Louis' hunting diary shows no interruption. That means, in my opinion, that there was no operation. So, was this phimosis cured "naturally" ?

Let's add that no doctor actually reports about this phimosis. They all confirm that the young man is perfectly healthy and ready for work !

So... what ?

When Marie Antoinette arrived at Versailles, she was but a girl, she looked 12 and had not her periods yet. No, her monthly cycle was not fixed yet. This could indeed explain a "narrowness of passage".

If her husband was extremely developed sexually, these physical disproportions could cause great pains to both partners. That is Bertiere's development, and she adds that, being repeated often and often, this difficult experience soon became a terrible moment for each of them.

This could also explain why the consummation took so long. This experience having grown more and more terrible each day, both Louis and Antoinette tried to avoid the alcove the most they could. Untill Joseph came and talked to her sister, reminding her of her duties.

Author:  Hellou_Librorum [ Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: One theory about their conjugal visits

I have read in Vincent Cronin's Louis and Antoinette that the marriage was indeed consummated in 1773. But there was no pregnancy until 1777 or 1778. Here is a translated part of a letter that Marie Antoinette wrote to her mother in August 1773. I did not translate it, though I got help from an online translator. Shame on me! ;)

Here is the part of the letter. I am quite sure that this is indeed a statement about the consummation.

“Two days having written you we believed M. Dauphin and me to have to say our state to the king. It set ablaze me with a lot of cordiality by calling me his dear daughter.”


Marie Antoinette, August 13th, 1773.

Author:  Hellou_Librorum [ Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: One theory about their conjugal visits

I intend on typing and "translating" the letter in it's entirety later.

Author:  Therese [ Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: One theory about their conjugal visits

Hellou_Librorum wrote:
I have read in Vincent Cronin's Louis and Antoinette that the marriage was indeed consummated in 1773. But there was no pregnancy until 1777 or 1778. Here is a translated part of a letter that Marie Antoinette wrote to her mother in August 1773. I did not translate it, though I got help from an online translator. Shame on me! ;)

Here is the part of the letter. I am quite sure that this is indeed a statement about the consummation.

“Two days having written you we believed M. Dauphin and me to have to say our state to the king. It set ablaze me with a lot of cordiality by calling me his dear daughter.”


Marie Antoinette, August 13th, 1773.


Yes,Hellou_Librorum, they were really trying in 1773 to consummate the marriage and may have come close to succeeding but (as Pimprenelle says above) it was a painful process. I am so glad you mentioned the Cronin book. Because of the physical impediments total penetration was probably not completed until 1778. Indeed the story of the phimosis has no basis, and neither do the claims by some that Louis was impotent. He was not.

Author:  Hellou_Librorum [ Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: One theory about their conjugal visits

I thought Louis XVI did indeed penetrate but not long enough for a pregnancy.

Author:  Therese [ Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: One theory about their conjugal visits

Hellou_Librorum wrote:
I thought Louis XVI did indeed penetrate but not long enough for a pregnancy.
Yes, that's pretty much it. :shock:

Author:  Anouk [ Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: One theory about their conjugal visits

Hellou_Librorum wrote:
I thought Louis XVI did indeed penetrate but not long enough for a pregnancy.


I also thought this but I was never enough brave to ask on this topic... omg :roll:
So, thanks Hellou for revealing this...

Author:  winsan2 [ Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: One theory about their conjugal visits

I love this forum and all its topics and many of your very educated comments and explanations. I do find it odd that I often cite sources for material which I add to the forum hoping to contribute something interesting--often my comments are overlooked--evoking no response. what gives? I've been on here several months now but in spite of being relatively new I contribute. :help:

Author:  Délicate fleur [ Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: One theory about their conjugal visits

Honestly, I wouldn't take it personally, winsan2. Not as many people regularly contribute to this forum anymore. I don't think that just because no one replies much means they don't like your contributions.

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