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One theory about their conjugal visits
http://forum.marie-antoinette.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1118
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Author:  Monsieur Andre [ Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:03 am ]
Post subject:  One theory about their conjugal visits

I have heard of one theory floating around that the reason the marriage was not consummated for so long was because Louis was a little...large, if you know what I mean, and this combined with MA's "narrowness of the passage" in her youth made it painful for the both of them to do the deed, so to speak. I'm not sure if I believe this theory, although it is rather funny! :D

Author:  Pimprenelle [ Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: One theory about their conjugal visits

Indeed, this theory is mentioned by modern historians, and quite convincing, in my opinion. See Simone Bertiere about it.

Author:  Hans Axel [ Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: One theory about their conjugal visits

I do not believe in this story. If one have had "sex education" - or whatever you call it - then one must know that this would not likely be a problem - for anyone - unless one is unnaturally huge, and if Louis was that then he and Antoinette would never have consummated their marriage. I have much more faith in the theory about phimosis.

Author:  Monsieur Andre [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: One theory about their conjugal visits

I don't believe in the phimosis theory because there is no record of him ever having surgery, which he had to have had in order to properly consummate the marriage. I believe it was entirely psychological.

Author:  Pimprenelle [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: One theory about their conjugal visits

The problem with the phimosis story is that no operation record was found. On the contrary, Louis' hunting diary shows no interruption. That means, in my opinion, that there was no operation. So, was this phimosis cured "naturally" ?

Let's add that no doctor acually reports about this phimosis. They all confirm that the young man is perfectly healthy and ready for work !

So... what ?

When Marie Antoinette arrived at Versaille, she was but a girl, she looked 12 and had not her periods yet. No, her monthly cycle was not fixed yet. This could indeed explain a "narrowness of passage".

If her husband was extremely developped sexually, these physical disproportions could cause great pains to both partners. That is Bertiere's developpment, and she adds that, being repeated often and often, this difficult experience soon became a terrible moment for each of them.

This could also explain why the consummation took so long. This experience having grown more and more terrible each day, both Louis and Antoinette tried to avoid the alcove the most they could. Untill Joseph came and talked to her sister, reminding her of her duties.

Author:  Monsieur Andre [ Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: One theory about their conjugal visits

Well in light of what you said Pim I think it must have been both physical and psychological, and that by the time Joseph came along they both pretty much given up, but MA didn't realize that she was now a fully grown woman and able to "take" her husband.

Author:  Hellou_Librorum [ Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: One theory about their conjugal visits

I actually did hear/read about the theory of Marie Antoinette's "passage" being too narrow. I believe Marie Antoinette needed time to physically mature in order to consummate the marriage. It may have not been a question whether or not Louis XVI was physically mature, however a question of Marie Antoinette maturing physically. Let's face it you need a male and a female that are sexually mature to have a child. I remember reading in "The Primal Teen". Hey I wanted to learn about how teens work so I could understand myself more. An average girls pelvis is unable to have a safe pregnancy/childbrith to carry the child until she is seventeen years old. A girl is also not fertile until 80% of her menstrual cycles include ovulation. Typically it take two to three years after menarche for a girl to have a regular cycle.

Author:  Monsieur Andre [ Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: One theory about their conjugal visits

I think I can actually imagine a scenario in which the young couple did try to consummate their marriage but Louis may have been afraid that he was hurting his wife, which may have scared him away from trying for so many years.

Author:  Therese [ Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: One theory about their conjugal visits

Monsieur Andre wrote:
I think I can actually imagine a scenario in which the young couple did try to consummate their marriage but Louis may have been afraid that he was hurting his wife, which may have scared him away from trying for so many years.


I agree.

Author:  Hellou_Librorum [ Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: One theory about their conjugal visits

Then again sex is certainly delicate. In order to have sex and not have a traumatizing experience its really a matter of two people being mature enough, physically, or mentally, both partners have to be or at least should be neutral and ready to engage in sexual relationships.

Author:  Comte de Provence [ Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: One theory about their conjugal visits

well the Phimosis theory also says nothing on these days, but so does it say "nothing" on the day of the storming of the bastille.
What is the condition called when a woman or young woman has a narrowness of passage, and how is it possible?

Author:  Hellou_Librorum [ Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: One theory about their conjugal visits

The closest medical term that I can think of is the term is vaginismus which is a painful contraction from what I have read. Sorry, I can't help. :?

Author:  Comte de Provence [ Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: One theory about their conjugal visits

ill look it up. ;]

Author:  Hellou_Librorum [ Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: One theory about their conjugal visits

I've tried to look that buggering term up.

Author:  Marija Vera [ Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: One theory about their conjugal visits

I’ve heard that Joseph had talked to Louis XVI who told him everything about his sexual problem.
(This may be funny, person who don’t know English quite well discussing this topic.)
Apparently Louis XVI had told him how he had been having good erections and could get inside her but couldn’t ‘stay’ there and finish the work - or begin with it. Joseph wrote that in a letter to his brother while staying in their home. Joseph had advised him and whatever he had told him worked because their consummation afterwards was full; Joseph obviously had more experience in that field.
I know this from a documentary about Marie Antoinette in which historians debated this subject.

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