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 Phillipine de Lambriquet and Louis XVI 
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Post Re: Phillipine de Lambriquet and Louis XVI
What I'm wondering is: where does she take this theory about Ernestine from? Are there any actual facts which can make one think that Louis was the father?

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Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:58 pm
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Post Re: Phillipine de Lambriquet and Louis XVI
Most of her book is based on speculation, I'm sure Therese could extrapolate.


Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:54 pm
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Post Re: Phillipine de Lambriquet and Louis XVI
I would not say most of the book is based on speculation, but some parts of it are. Here is an article on the substitution theory http://teaattrianon.blogspot.com/2007/1 ... heory.html. To quote:
Quote:
The substitution theory, which keeps flaring up like wild fire on internet discussion forums, claims that Louis XVI had an "operation" and was encouraged by his wicked brother Provence to test his prowess upon a serving maid. The maid, who was a married woman, gave birth to a daughter named Marie-Philippine Lambriquet. Marie-Antoinette eventually adopted the girl and renamed her "Ernestine" after a character in one of her favorite novels. Ernestine and Madame Royale were educated together.

Later, the legend claims, while Madame Royale was in prison, she was raped and impregnated. She was sent off to Germany to a small town where she was made to wear a green veil and given the name of "Sophie Batta," also known as "The Dark Countess." Meanwhile, her wicked uncle Louis XVIII replaced her with her alleged "half-sister" Ernestine, who became the Duchesse d' Angouleme. The "Dark Countess" rumor was perpetuated by Marie-Thérèse's moroseness and lack of beauty. How could she be the daughter of the beautiful lively Marie-Antoinette? So they assumed that she was someone else.


The mystery of the identity of Sophie Batta and rumors that MTC had been molested in the Temple gave rise to the rumors. Nagel was not just inventing it out of air. As this review of her book says http://teaattrianon.blogspot.com/2008/0 ... error.html:
Quote:
I also must admit that in the opening chapters of the book I was a bit put off by the insinuations that Louis XVI had an affair with Madame de Polignac, Marie-Antoinette’s best friend. Not in any biographies of either Louis or Antoinette have I ever come across such an assertion, which includes Louis’ fathering of little Jules. Of course, I have not read everything and nothing is outside the realm of possibility, I suppose. It is known that Louis was close to Madame de Polignac and wrote her many letters, bestowing marks of honor upon her that he showed to no other lady. As outrageous as an allegation of an affair may be to those who are familiar with Louis XVI’s life, at least it goes against the stereotype of Louis as an impotent, asexual drone. However, I have to draw the line at the book’s claim of the king begetting a child with one of the servants. The image of Louis XVI chasing a helpless chambermaid produces too much cognitive dissonance. The biography is not footnoted as extensively as it could be, especially when otherwise unheard of claims are being made.


Nagel actually disproves the legend of the Dark Countess and so her book is worth reading.

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Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:24 pm
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Post Re: Phillipine de Lambriquet and Louis XVI
Thank you, Therese. It's just that all the theory seemed to me a bit lacking in bases...I think one could say anything, in the end, but one should always have fact to prove his supposition!

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Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:19 pm
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Post Re: Phillipine de Lambriquet and Louis XVI
I agree, it is lacking in factual basis.

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Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:26 pm
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Post Re: Phillipine de Lambriquet and Louis XVI
Therese wrote:
I agree, it is lacking in factual basis.

Therese, I'm sorry but the links do not work...


Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:53 pm
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Post Re: Phillipine de Lambriquet and Louis XVI
I fixed it. Thanks for letting me know!

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Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:04 pm
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Post Re: Phillipine de Lambriquet and Louis XVI
Therese wrote:
I fixed it. Thanks for letting me know!

You're welcome! Thank you for taking the time to correct it!
Im highly interested! :angel4:


Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:13 pm
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Post Re: Phillipine de Lambriquet and Louis XVI
Elena Maria Vidal has another interesting post about Marie Antoinette's adopted children: http://teaattrianon.blogspot.com/2008/08/marie-antoinettes-adopted-children.html

Interestingly, she mentions that Hausman and Jallut's 1971 biography "Marie Antoinette" has some quite detailed information about her adopted children if anyone's interested.

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Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:03 am
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Post Re: Phillipine de Lambriquet and Louis XVI
I too have read the book on Marie-Therese and been really surprised by the assertion that Ernestine (name used by MA) was a daughter of Louis XVI. Whoa. But it is something that was pretty common and accepted in France. It shocked me that he might have gone further and had a son Jules by the comtesse de Polignac though.

I'm pretty skeptical that the Dark Countess would have been MTC; don't you think hundreds of old courtiers would have known the difference and someone would have spoken of it. If she was hidden away due to the birth of an illegitimate son--wow--where would he be in the royal lineup and does he have descendents today? In fact, WHO WAS HE? hAS ANYONE READ OF RESULTS FrOm dna TESTING WHICH WAS SUPPOSED TO COMPARE THE REMAINS OF THE dARK cOUNTESS WITH MA's. :? From the Royalty Boards dated 2002. Sorry for the typos.


Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:02 pm
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Post Re: Phillipine de Lambriquet and Louis XVI
I don't think I can believe it.


Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:04 pm
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Post Re: Phillipine de Lambriquet and Louis XVI
I had never heard, until now, about the "Dunkelgräfin" and I must say I don't find this story credible. The fact that, apparently, some royalties considered this woman as the actual MTC does not prove anything, after all, the same can be said with the "Anastassia case" and it was proven wrong. The reasons why she could have been exchanged seem hardly convincing. It remains true however that MTC behaviour changed suddenly after her stay in Vienna, which Castelot explains by her disappointing marriage as well as the stress linked with a painful past that everyone thought good to remind her of. It also seems that her physical appearance altered after this stay, since she was considered as quite a pretty young girl in the Temple, but already in Vienna, Fersen noticed that, to his disappointment she was more "Bourbon looking" than Habsburg looking.

I also heard several stories about Louis having slept with various maids ... it is even asserted that he had his first experience in Versailles park in order to "practice". The only this that is certain is that he refused to sleep with an actress that was seen as a potential mistress for him, which nontheless provoked the queen's anger and sudden return to Versailles, after her flue (can someone correct me if I'm wrong ?). Then, I find this theory quite hard to believe. What's more, the queen would have apparently adopted this girl, knowing she was her husband's daughter ? From what we know about MA's personnality, it seems also barely believable.

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Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:00 pm
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Post Re: Phillipine de Lambriquet and Louis XVI
Ludy wrote:
I had never heard, until now, about the "Dunkelgräfin" and I must say I don't find this story credible. The fact that, apparently, some royalties considered this woman as the actual MTC does not prove anything, after all, the same can be said with the "Anastassia case" and it was proven wrong. The reasons why she could have been exchanged seem hardly convincing. It remains true however that MTC behaviour changed suddenly after her stay in Vienna, which Castelot explains by her disappointing marriage as well as the stress linked with a painful past that everyone thought good to remind her of. It also seems that her physical appearance altered after this stay, since she was considered as quite a pretty young girl in the Temple, but already in Vienna, Fersen noticed that, to his disappointment she was more "Bourbon looking" than Habsburg looking.

I also heard several stories about Louis having slept with various maids ... it is even asserted that he had his first experience in Versailles park in order to "practice". The only this that is certain is that he refused to sleep with an actress that was seen as a potential mistress for him, which nontheless provoked the queen's anger and sudden return to Versailles, after her flue (can someone correct me if I'm wrong ?). Then, I find this theory quite hard to believe. What's more, the queen would have apparently adopted this girl, knowing she was her husband's daughter ? From what we know about MA's personnality, it seems also barely believable.


I agree. Louis was too scrupulous.

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Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:03 pm
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Post Re: Phillipine de Lambriquet and Louis XVI
It was the flu or smallpox? I don't remember. I always wondered where such an event would've taken place. He was never alone, especially as king. And he didn't have a Trianon to get away from it all. Even so, it's still hard to believe. So if the dark countess was not MTC could it have been Ernestine?


Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:18 pm
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Post Re: Phillipine de Lambriquet and Louis XVI
Comte de Provence wrote:
It was the flu or smallpox? I don't remember. I always wondered where such an event would've taken place. He was never alone, especially as king. And he didn't have a Trianon to get away from it all. Even so, it's still hard to believe. So if the dark countess was not MTC could it have been Ernestine?


I think it was the flu.

Ernestine died young, in Napoleon's reign. They think the Dark Countess may have been an illegitimate daughter of Joseph II. I can't recall where I read that, maybe in Nagel's book.

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Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:22 pm
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