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Beauty Standards
http://forum.marie-antoinette.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=538
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Author:  Ludy [ Tue May 27, 2008 7:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beauty Standards

Marija Vera wrote:
Rosalie wrote:
I don't think he was an awful king in general: in a period of peace, he would have been considered like a mild, wise and gracious sovereign. He was th wrng king fir his time, because the times required a man capable of making difficult choiches, and Louis was too indecise for that.


Here I wouldn’t agree with you dear Rosalie, at least not completely as almost always :wink: . In the time of peace any king is great. Every time has got its difficulties and the time of Louis XVI was particularly bad. I afraid he didn’t do much to make a situation better – by that I mean significant big decisions that are necessary to make the best out the situation. Louis XIII and Louis XIV were able to choose the right advisers, to surround themselves with very clever and useful people. Louis XIV enjoyed in a great luxury, his politic had required a great amount of money. And he managed to choose the right associates (think about Colber).

In history we remember the kings mostly by their accomplishments and the things they had done for their state. Because that we say Catharine the Great or Ivan IV the Bad (Terrible) or for some other rulers The Weak and so on. From the historical point of view I find Louis XVI a weak king. As I said I think he was a good man but that is not something that really counts in the world of politics. Some other qualities are more significant. :|


I agree, but you also have to consider that when a situation is that difficult, you don't have leeway to do ambitious reform. I tend to think that Louis XVI was a great reformist in any way. But priviledges were so deep-rooted that I don't think France was reformable. I don't want to dwell on politics but look at France's situation now, and our president certainly wants to carry out reforms ! What is more, at that period, it was the very ideological basis of the monarchy that was at stake.

Author:  Marija Vera [ Tue May 27, 2008 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beauty Standards

Ludy wrote:
But priviledges were so deep-rooted that I don't think France was reformable.


Yes, that’s true. The best thing that could happen from that situation is France to accept its position and become the parliament monarchy. Unfortunately the hate reached its boiling point and the king was not so wise either. :x

Author:  Rosalie [ Tue May 27, 2008 7:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beauty Standards

Yes, what I meant is that I wouldn't define him an awful king, because he did some good reforms, and that in another period he would have been a better king than many others. But I agree with you that he was not born to be a king anyway; I mean, I think both he ad MA were didn't have that talent, which makes their charachters even more tragic if you think of it: they were in a situation they didn't wnat and didn't choose and which they didn't have the ability to work out.

Author:  Marija Vera [ Tue May 27, 2008 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beauty Standards

I agree, Marie Antoinette didn’t have a talent to lead the state or knowledge in politics that Catharine the Great or Marie Teresa had had. Not to mention Louis XVI. I guess thay didn’t have enough time to prepare either.

Author:  versailles [ Tue May 27, 2008 9:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beauty Standards

i think her mother had a lot to do with it

Author:  Hellou_Librorum [ Thu May 29, 2008 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beauty Standards

No. I think Maria Theresa prepared Marie Antoinette for becoming a ruler, she anticipated it. Whilst the French anticipated Louis XVI's father to become king, he died. They frantically tried to educate him, it's a shame they didn't educate all of the princes equally so each would be capable to rule.

Author:  Marija Vera [ Thu May 29, 2008 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beauty Standards

Hellou_Librorum wrote:
No. I think Maria Theresa prepared Marie Antoinette for becoming a ruler, she anticipated it.

I agree. She tried.
She was so concerned for her and her letters were full of advices.

Author:  versailles [ Thu May 29, 2008 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beauty Standards

well thats how the cookie (or should i say macroon) crumbles

Author:  Rosalie [ Thu May 29, 2008 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beauty Standards

I also think Maria Theresa tried to educate MA for her role, even if maybe it was too late, because historians tend to say that in the first years of her life her education was quite neglected. For Louis it was different, because he was not expected to be a ruler. But above all they were very young when they ascended to the throne ad, as Hellou said, they didn't have time to prepare. And then, I believe there is a talent of ruling, as of all other things. And unluckily they didn't have it. It's weird how good people can be unsuitable rulers, while people who are worse in an ethical sense can do the good of theur countries...it's a kind of paradox, but it happens.

Author:  Anouk [ Fri May 30, 2008 8:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beauty Standards

Rosalie wrote:
For Louis it was different, because he was not expected to be a ruler. But above all they were very young when they ascended to the throne ad, as Hellou said, they didn't have time to prepare.


It is true and how interesting that after all he was able -in some degree- to rule his kingdom! He was not prepared to be king, but he was quite clever, widely read and interested in history. I think it took the base of his reign.

Author:  Marija Vera [ Fri May 30, 2008 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beauty Standards

Rosalie wrote:
It's weird how good people can be unsuitable rulers, while people who are worse in an ethical sense can do the good of theur countries...it's a kind of paradox, but it happens.

It happens quite often.

Author:  Hellou_Librorum [ Sat May 31, 2008 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beauty Standards

That's one of the many ironies in life.

Author:  Lilly [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beauty Standards

Marija Vera wrote:
Hellou_Librorum wrote:
No. I think Maria Theresa prepared Marie Antoinette for becoming a ruler, she anticipated it.

I agree. She tried.
She was so concerned for her and her letters were full of advices.



I think that Maria Theresa's preparation of Marie Antoinette's becoming Queen should have begun much sooner than it did. The letters and advice from her once MA was in France, must have much of the time, seemed to MA like a nagging mother. At a certain point we'd all roll our eyes and say OK Mom, enough. Marie Antoinette didn't see things the way her mother did. She was too young and inexperienced to get what her mother was talking about - not in all things, but in some. For example, she understood she had to produce a dauphin - but, what she didn't understand was all the advice about her behavior and reputation - and she did not take it seroiusly.
Louis also in my opinion was not schooled to be king. There was plenty of time to aquaint him with the problems of the country and to help set up good advisors for his reign, but even general knowledge seems to have not been given to him.

Author:  baron de batz [ Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beauty Standards

Yes but he had the wisdom to admit it and to ask many questions of his experienced advisors. And when his ministers came to see him, they were always amazed at his grasp of a complex range of subjects. He worked hard, studying his papers diligently.

Author:  versailles [ Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beauty Standards

Lilly wrote:
Marija Vera wrote:
Hellou_Librorum wrote:
No. I think Maria Theresa prepared Marie Antoinette for becoming a ruler, she anticipated it.

I agree. She tried.
She was so concerned for her and her letters were full of advices.



I think that Maria Theresa's preparation of Marie Antoinette's becoming Queen should have begun much sooner than it did. The letters and advice from her once MA was in France, must have much of the time, seemed to MA like a nagging mother. At a certain point we'd all roll our eyes and say OK Mom, enough. Marie Antoinette didn't see things the way her mother did. She was too young and inexperienced to get what her mother was talking about - not in all things, but in some. For example, she understood she had to produce a dauphin - but, what she didn't understand was all the advice about her behavior and reputation - and she did not take it seroiusly.
Louis also in my opinion was not schooled to be king. There was plenty of time to aquaint him with the problems of the country and to help set up good advisors for his reign, but even general knowledge seems to have not been given to him.

Well, in all honesty how many of all the Queens of Europe were prepared to rule a powerful country? Few, it was their husbands job. MA just got the short end of the stick.

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