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Cagliostro
http://forum.marie-antoinette.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1798
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Author:  silverstar [ Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:49 am ]
Post subject:  Cagliostro

A magician.... charletan..... conjurer... occultist....
he is a mysterious figure who travelled widely in Europe.
He was a friend of Cardinal de Rohan and perhaps had a large
part in the "affair of the necklace "
go here
http://celebheaven.freephpbb3hosting.co ... f=12&t=153



.

Author:  jimcheval [ Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cagliostro

This page seems quite simply to have cribbed the Wikipedia entry, which has the advantage of being somewhat neater:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cagliostro

Cagliostro was only one of a number of charlatans and hustlers of the time, Casanova being the most famous (he was as much one of these as a lover, which may say something about what some women fall for :) ), but there was also Mesmer, whose dubious theories nonetheless bear the same relation to hypnotism and even psychoanalysis that alchemy does to chemistry.

The really surprising thing, both for the first two and a whole series of petty criminals, was how very easy it was to pass for an aristocrat at the time. It was pretty much de rigueur for any self-respecting hustler, even though many were of low birth.

Author:  baron de batz [ Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cagliostro

I am interested that you liken Casanaova to a charlatan and a hustler. Before I remove my glove to defend his honour :lol: , I shall let you, sir, defend your assertion more amply...

Author:  silverstar [ Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cagliostro

quote jimcheval
This page seems quite simply to have cribbed the Wikipedia entry, which has the advantage of being somewhat neater:
end quote

thanks for the snide remark.... it makes all my efforts seem worthwhile..........

Author:  jimcheval [ Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cagliostro

To the baron: Casanova himself quite gleefully describes some of his hustles, like telling the future (as I recall, in one case he was quite amazed when a woman thanked him years later for foretelling her success). (He also unapologetically describes participating in a kidnapping and gang rape, as far as that goes - honor was not a big concern in the fief de Seingalt.) Not to mention that he walked around bearing a title that by all evidence was completely invented.

Silverstar: I wasn't being snide; I was giving credit where credit is due.

Numerous sites on the Internet drive traffic by simply copying Wikipedia entries and presenting them without accreditation. Whenever I see that happening, I highlight it.

There's nothing snide about proper sourcing.

Author:  baron de batz [ Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cagliostro

He himself admits to the fact that the title was invented. He wanted a name that meant nothing; a linguistic invention, quite why I don't know. As for the fortune telling that was part of his fun loving nature. He had the playfulness of his century. I have read a good deal of his extensive mémoires in French as they were written and did not come across any kidnaps or gang rape scenes, but maybe I missed something?! Perhaps you could point put to me in which of the volumes this is described? There are three. It seems totally out of character for him.

Author:  jimcheval [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cagliostro

It's in Volume 4 return to Venice. You can read it here:
http://www.chezjim.com/sundries/s36.html

He may have playfully adopted a title, but I doubt most of the people who met him were in on the joke. As for why, it's simple enough: assuming a title was a quick way to get prestige in the period (especially if you were, as I recall, the illegitimate son of an actress.) The fortune telling was taken dead seriously by those he did it for, as he himself recounts.

Many scam artists view their hustles as kind of a game, but that doesn't make them any less fraudulent. I remember a French coin dealer talking to me once of the "game" just before he shamelessly bought a coin for a fraction of its real worth.

I doubt the seller would have been amused.

Author:  silverstar [ Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cagliostro

I seem to remember reading something about Cagliostro amazing people ( maybe Cardinal Rohan ? )
by producing gems out of thin air and other wonders... which makes you think
he was a kind of magician... travelling the courts of Europe giving shows
to Royalty and aristocracy..... that he was a showman !
but this is conjecture on my part.


In the necklace affair the real idiot was the jeweller... handing over a necklace
of such astronomical value to the Cardinal
without payment nor any surity.........
In the end he was the big loser financially but then he only has himself to blame.

Author:  Ania [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cagliostro

I wonder which tricks a magician would use in those days. Were they just as complicated?

Author:  baron de batz [ Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cagliostro

I love your avatar! Such a soft face...

Author:  Marija Vera [ Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cagliostro

Yes, I've read that part of Casanova's memoirs but also I was confused when you mentioned a gang rape. Probably because he wrote too much about the pleasure of a woman that I stopped observing it as a crime although the beginning undeniable indicates that. Also because his charm and gallantry in many situations can be deceiving. But it is true that however witty and charming Casanova is in his writings, he admits some things that can cast a different light on his character.

He was a fraud, he justifies it with his philosophy. I don't have a book here to quote him (it was in the beginning) so I may be helped with some links. There was a funny situation when he used his "knowledge of Cabala" to help one noble lady with a bad skin rash. He made her a diet which had full success and her face was perfectly clean! After some time, the lady returned with the same problem so he correctly assumed that she wasn't persistent. As he said, she loved life too much to deprive herself. He found her too pretty and intelligent and at that time he didn't dare to try to seduce her, which he regretted. This is one of nice examples. I never liked how he stole the idea of a lottery.

About Cagliostro. I read that he went to Russia where he was caught cheating when he tried to miraculously cure one man which made people doubt in him, but there were masons who celebrated him believing that he could fly and travel through centuries.

baron de batz wrote:
I love your avatar! Such a soft face...


By Greuze. Young, delicate female faces, usually with some symbol of lost virginity in the background. :wink:
Welcome Ania!

Author:  silverstar [ Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cagliostro

He travelled widely in Europe.... how come he was in Paris just at the
exact time of the diamond necklace affair ?
Maybe he was the main instigator of this scandal ?

Author:  jimcheval [ Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cagliostro

Marija Vera wrote:
I was confused when you mentioned a gang rape. Probably because he wrote too much about the pleasure of a woman that I stopped observing it as a crime although the beginning undeniable indicates that.


Well, he's hardly the first rapist to do that, is he?

A woman I knew years ago was raped while hitchhiking. The man wanted to take her to dinner afterwards. I'm sure he'd convinced himself she enjoyed it.

It's very telling to me that Casanova's brother wanted no part of what was going on. And I think any modern reader will be very skeptical about the "enjoyment" of a woman who has been taken off by force by a group of young men (I'd guess she was just terrified of being killed at that point.)

There is a whole other issue here of how we become fond of famous figures and are loath to judge their worst qualities for what they are (the case of a famous film director comes to mind here). And I can't deny I'm grateful to have Casanova's accounts of period history. But personally I don't find the situation in the least ambivalent (anymore than I find the anal rape of a thirteen-year-old particularly ambivalent, even if I admire her rapist's films.)

Author:  Ania [ Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cagliostro

Marija Vera wrote:
Yes, I've read that part of Casanova's memoirs but also I was confused when you mentioned a gang rape. Probably because he wrote too much about the pleasure of a woman that I stopped observing it as a crime although the beginning undeniable indicates that. Also because his charm and gallantry in many situations can be deceiving. But it is true that however witty and charming Casanova is in his writings, he admits some things that can cast a different light on his character.

He was a fraud, he justifies it with his philosophy. I don't have a book here to quote him (it was in the beginning) so I may be helped with some links. There was a funny situation when he used his "knowledge of Cabala" to help one noble lady with a bad skin rash. He made her a diet which had full success and her face was perfectly clean! After some time, the lady returned with the same problem so he correctly assumed that she wasn't persistent. As he said, she loved life too much to deprive herself. He found her too pretty and intelligent and at that time he didn't dare to try to seduce her, which he regretted. This is one of nice examples. I never liked how he stole the idea of a lottery.

About Cagliostro. I read that he went to Russia where he was caught cheating when he tried to miraculously cure one man which made people doubt in him, but there were masons who celebrated him believing that he could fly and travel through centuries.

baron de batz wrote:
I love your avatar! Such a soft face...


By Greuze. Young, delicate female faces, usually with some symbol of lost virginity in the background. :wink:
Welcome Ania!



Thanks ! <3 to both...

Author:  Lilly [ Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cagliostro

Joseph Balsamo aka Cagliostro

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