Marie Antoinette Online Forum

Intellectual Standards
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Author:  baron de batz [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Intellectual Standards

Very true point Ludy :wink: ... the eternal problem!

I was of course talking of duelling!!

Author:  Marija Vera [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Intellectual Standards

Good Baron, I almost thought you were up to satisfying me! :lol:

Expect my post on Intellectual standards, so the duel could begin! :)

Author:  baron de batz [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Intellectual Standards

Madame i will even let you shoot first. :wink:

Author:  Marija Vera [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Intellectual Standards

But monsieur, get your sword ready, using pistols is so ungracious and barbaric! :wink: By the way, killing you with my sword would be much more intimate and would demand at least some skill.

Author:  Marija Vera [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Intellectual Standards

Last year around New year I was working in my parents company as a sales person and I did a good job as we had just too many people and there were a lot of things to be done. Anyway I was very good with people and got so many compliments (whenever I worked, customers thought I was very sweet and polite) but there was one very frustrated woman with who I just couldn't cope. The first time she was irritated by another sales person so she came the second time with her husband. Her husband appeared a little bit more reasonable but when she started discussing with me and offending everything and everyone, I just broke (this was after 10 - 12 hours of working, as my presence was always needed) and he sided with his wife so I suggested that we discuss outside so all other people wouldn't be witness of it. There the husband went mad! I was alone with them, on the street, he was much taller than me, and he started yelling, threatening me, verbally molesting me and I got so upset. Then my brother came out (let's say that he is the boss) and as a diplomat dismissed me in a manner "the customer is always right". He was right to do so. But in that moment I wanted Casanova, Comte de Tilly to come out and defend my honor as I didn't feel it was all right but felt almost abused! I wanted to go back to the 18th century where the honor was very important and where it was outrageous that a man should speak like that to a lady, in front of her brother! And that is what I like about it - the words had a certain weight, you couldn't say everything to everyone, there were some rules, rules of politeness, of etiquette, that you could even pay with your life!

Speaking of duels, mine with monsieur baron, here is one in the style of the 16th, 17th century. My speakers aren't working so I can't hear what is in the background but I quite like what I see -

Duels in this form were chiefly practised in Early Modern Europe, with precedents in the medieval code of chivalry, and continued into the modern period (19th to early 20th centuries) especially among military officers. During the 17th and 18th centuries (and earlier), duels were mostly fought with swords (the rapier, later the smallsword, and finally the French foil), but beginning in the late 18th century and during the 19th century, duels were more commonly fought using pistols, but fencing and pistol duels continued to co-exist throughout the 19th century.
The code of the honourable duel surrounded the notion of honour. Duels were fought not so much to kill the opponent as to gain "satisfaction", that is, to restore one's honour by demonstrating a willingness to risk one's life for it, and as such the tradition of duelling was reserved to the male members of nobility, in the modern era extended to those of the upper classes more generally. From the early 17th century duels were often illegal in Europe, though in most societies where duelling was socially accepted, participants in a fair duel were not prosecuted, or if they were, not convicted.


King Louis XIII of France outlawed duelling in 1626, and duels remained illegal in France ever afterwards. At least one noble was beheaded for fighting a duel during Louis's reign, and his successor Louis XIV intensified efforts to wipe out the duel. Despite these efforts, duelling continued. Between 1685 and 1716, French officers fought 10,000 duels, leading to over 400 deaths.[34]
The last duel in France took place in 1967 when Gaston Deferre insulted René Ribière at the French parliament and was subsequently challenged to a duel fought with swords. René Ribière lost the duel, having been wounded twice. He escaped relatively uninjured, however.

Huh, I almost thought that my demand for satisfaction was a result of the badly translated French so baron had every right to tease me. But yes, satisfaction (of an honor!) it is :wink:

Author:  Marija Vera [ Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Intellectual Standards

I think we already have a topic about duels but even so I guess I can mention them briefly when I speak about honor and yes, intellectual standards, and of course making our dear baron pay for all his offenses. How do you say in English sekundant - it is a person that you choose to monitor the regularity and in pistol duels can measure the time, each side has one as a witness? I loved the scene in the movie "Young Casanova" when a guy is payed to force Casanova on duel so he trips him in a tavern embarrassing him in front of everyone. Young Casanova, beautifully dressed stands up an says "I apologize Sir, but I think you did this on purpose!" Since the guy didn't apologize, of course they set a duel. In La Nouvelle Heloise Saint-Preux set a duel with Lord Edouard just because he suggested that Julie could be his mistress (and therefore offended her honor). The way they found the way out also beautifully shows the spirit and circumstances in the 18th century. Ah.... As Casanova describes in his memoirs, it was a true social event, where ladies could also seek for their new brave lover.

Author:  Ludy [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Intellectual Standards

Well it is interesting to talk about the sense of honour and duels. I definitely need to read La Nouvelle Héloïse !

I just read a very interesting article in Libération about this practice.
Of course, it had been forbidden by Louis XIII but it continued up until the III Republic in France, when it grew fashionable again -in the very militarized post 1870 France. I did not know that the last duel in France was led by Gaston Deferre in 1967 ... mayor of Marseilles :lol: !

I remember reading a very beautiful short story by Maupassant, in which a man was to take part in a duel, due to some strife I fail to remember. Thinking it over all day, wavering, he faltered and committed suicide. I was very stricken by this story, which highlights how frightening duels might have been for the young men that took part in them. I think the short story is called "A coward".

One of the greatest XIX century writer, Aleksandr Pushkin, was killed in a duel by a Frenchman. :(

Marija, you sound like you very much approve of this practice !)

Author:  Marija Vera [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Intellectual Standards

Even if the duel itself was surely frightening, it was much more frightening to escape, or not appear as then one's honor could never be restored. That would explain the suicide as the only way out as one could not face what would happen if he would simply refuse to participate. That is interesting in La Nouvelle Heloise, how they managed to reconcile avoiding showing one of them as a coward. I am not sure whether I approve the practice but I surely approve the idea of honor as something worth dying for.

Author:  baron de batz [ Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Intellectual Standards

I must admit that i think your brother was very wrong not to have defended you better against that rude man!

Author:  Marija Vera [ Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Intellectual Standards

That is the 21st century, totally practical mind. But I did minded it very much, especially after when he didn't want to give me the man's business card. (the man gave him so I thought, let me know his name, surname and address as revenge is the dish best served cold). I was very humiliated and upset that day as I told my 18th century mind couldn't bare that such humiliation went unpunished. At least the other male family member was on business trip that day so I didn't get disappointed in him as well, but I do think he would stand up for me.

Author:  Lilly [ Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Intellectual Standards

baron de batz wrote:
I must admit that i think your brother was very wrong not to have defended you better against that rude man!

Marija, your bully is extremely lucky that it wasn't MY brother he encountered....I hate to say it, but my brother would have knocked this guy out - seriously!! Your brother is much more diplomatic than mine would have been! A man who bullies a woman is a gutless coward!

Author:  Marija Vera [ Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Intellectual Standards

I would understand that, i am very impulsive too! :wink:

Author:  Lilly [ Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Intellectual Standards

I do not generally advocate violence of any sort, BUT - sometimes a good old fashioned ass whooping is just what some people need!

Author:  baron de batz [ Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Intellectual Standards

I do think he needed someone to teach him to pick on someone his own size. At least to tell to shut up at first and then see his reaction.

Author:  Marija Vera [ Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Intellectual Standards

That was the whole problem I find, he was much taller than me, at one point started yelling his own name and surname to prove to me some point who he is, I was alone with them in front of the store, in the dark street and his voice was almost echoing (in reality he is no one really, just a jerk with a frustrated wife) And maybe the worst of all is that I can't at the moment stay totally cool but my voice starts to shiver, and yes, i am near crying! Anyhow you can come across various people so I am a bit hesitant as I have to work this year as well. I need a sword to defend my honor in the 18th century style if I come across such fool again! Since I don't have my own Casanova to do it for me. :wink:

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