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The influence of Freemasonry within the court
http://forum.marie-antoinette.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=755
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Author:  Louis-Charles [ Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:41 am ]
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Therese wrotte :

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Yes, L-C, according to Madame Vidal's article it was dated August, 1790.

Ah exact I checked, this letter is in the "Correspondance de Marie-Antoinette" (by Evelyne Lever), it dated August 17, 1790… :D

Author:  Therese [ Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:32 pm ]
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Monsieur Andre wrote:
I was just proving my point, 'tis all. :wink:


I am sorry, I do not understand the point. Never mind. :?

Author:  Therese [ Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:33 pm ]
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Louis-Charles wrote:
Therese wrotte :

Quote:
Yes, L-C, according to Madame Vidal's article it was dated August, 1790.

Ah exact I checked, this letter is in the "Correspondance de Marie-Antoinette" (by Evelyne Lever), it dated August 17, 1790… :D


That is good to know., L-C. So Madame Vidal must know what she is talking about. :)

Author:  Louis-Charles [ Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:30 pm ]
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Yes, and this letter written on August 17, 1790 is used by Evelyne Lever, we can sure be that this letter is authentic (because Lever put in her book only the letters whose autenticity is proven) thus Marie-Antoinette was really wary of the freemasons…and Madame Vidal quoted the good letter which is very significant, and which shows the importance of freemasonry :D

Author:  Therese [ Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:01 pm ]
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Louis-Charles wrote:
Yes, and this letter written on August 17, 1790 is used by Evelyne Lever, we can sure be that this letter is authentic (because Lever put in her book only the letters whose autenticity is proven) thus Marie-Antoinette was really wary of the freemasons…and Madame Vidal quoted the good letter which is very significant, and which shows the importance of freemasonry :D


Yes, indeed! Evelyn Lever, having a more liberal perspective and being soft on the Revolution, would not include that letter unless she was absolutely certain of its authenticity. But I am sure that Madame Vidal is careful, too.

Author:  Pimprenelle [ Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:05 pm ]
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I would never talk about a "masonic plot", but it is certain that the masonic ideals are important about the French revolution. Elena Maria Vidal notices many relevant points in her very erudite article.

First of all, freemasonry was indeed very fashion at this period. And some lodges did nothing more political than giving to the poor and good actions.

But not all of them... Some others had more political aims. To put it generally, they struggled for the rights of mankind and universal equality. All ideals that became those of the French revolution.

Now... what kind of masons were Fersen, Joseph II, Carolina of Naples, Lamballe ? One fact is certain. After Antoinette's death, Carolina publicly regretted to have welcomed those men with enlightened ideas, those who eventually led to her sister's misfortune and execution.

There would be so many ways to explore about the part freemasonry played in the French revolution... without seeing plots everywhere. Elena Maria Vidal's article really is a very balanced and informative one.

Author:  Therese [ Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:25 pm ]
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I agree, Pimprenelle.

Author:  Elizabeth [ Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:46 am ]
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Pimprenelle writes ;
Quote:
I would never talk about a "masonic plot", but it is certain that the masonic ideals are important about the French revolution


You really don't think there were some freemasons that had some plans about the revolution?

Author:  Pimprenelle [ Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:34 am ]
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Of course, dear... Some freemasons secretly worked on spreading their ideals of equality all over the world, and in France too. Let's add that Philippe Egalite was a freemason too... and that working for equality was working for him to catch the crown !

But I don't think you can say that the French revolution was due to freemasonry only.

Author:  Aurora [ Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:33 am ]
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I think it is interesting that when franc macons loges started something around 1720-30, they didn't appreciate women so much. But when in Paris there were such intelligent and noble ladies who, also were very much in lumières, they finally had to form the loges for women also. And there were so many intelligent women joining them, Duchesses de Bourbon, Chartres,princesse de Lamballe etc etc. For the more revolutionnary thoughts I think the famous salons held by ladies, were more responsible for that. But then again, they had some same members often.
p.s. Does anyone know the exact reason why F.A.Mesmer was at court audience, not by an order of La Reine?
:shock:

Author:  Pimprenelle [ Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:00 am ]
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Aurora ! :D So glad to read you, dear ! :D

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Does anyone know the exact reason why F.A.Mesmer was at court audience, not by an order of La Reine?

I did not get this well... :oops: Do you mean that Mesmer was invited by the king, and not by the queen ? :shock:

Author:  Aurora [ Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:38 pm ]
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Ah, chère Pimprenelle I have been in Versailles recently hearing so many wonderful things :wink:
also have had computer problems :( and waiting perhaps this you know what-mania to calm down...
I wanted to ask the reason why Mesmer was performing his acts for Marie Antoinette, were they only "shows" or did she herself was seeking a solution for example for her bad leg or else?
It must have been a very affecting experience to see Mesmer's work, he used to have dim lights and music played,especially with the glass armonica, which La Reine also mastered. So Mesmer was one of the first music theraupeutists also :lol:
But then Louis put a committee (Lavoisier, Bailly, Franklin and Guillotin) to investigate Mesmer...
Anyway I have always thought that Mesmer believed in his work and Cagliostro was a pure charlatan (and all linked to free maconry).

Author:  Therese [ Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:02 pm ]
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Welcome back, Aurora! I do not think that the queen was ever a dedicated disciple of Mesmer, although she may have found it interesting, as did many people at the court. I doubt that Louis would have allowed her to become deeply involved with it. He would have known the difference between real science and pseudo-science. The royal governess and the queen's friend, Madame de Guemenee was deeply involved and thought the spirits were communicating with her through her dogs.

Author:  Pimprenelle [ Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:40 pm ]
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I agree with Therese there is no proof that the queen attended Mesmer's therapetics. Not even a real suspicion, I guess... Some said however that she came once, desguised...

Nevertheless, Madame de Lamballe was cured by Mesmer, and happy with this. Plus, Mesmer was an Austrian... so, it is possible that Marie Antoinette was interested in his method.

Author:  Elizabeth [ Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:59 pm ]
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Pimprenelle wrote:
I agree with Therese there is no proof that the queen attended Mesmer's therapetics. Not even a real suspicion, I guess... Some said however that she came once, desguised...

Nevertheless, Madame de Lamballe was cured by Mesmer, and happy with this. Plus, Mesmer was an Austrian... so, it is possible that Marie Antoinette was interested in his method.


THis is interesting! What was Madame de Lamballe cured of ~ nervousness and fainting? What time period was this group involved with Mesmer?

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