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The influence of Freemasonry within the court
http://forum.marie-antoinette.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=755
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Author:  Adrienne [ Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:13 pm ]
Post subject:  The influence of Freemasonry within the court

Topic requested by baron de batz.

Author:  baron de batz [ Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:28 pm ]
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Thanks Adrienne for the post. I have heard that the Freemasons were already quite active at this time and that their doctrine was incompatible with the constraints that they believed a monarchy brought to a country. Were masonic lodges already thriving, were Robespierre, Danton and Marat masons, were certain members of the court, even of the Royal family masons and so conspiring against the King and Queen? I have always considered masons a sinister bunch, and I would be interested to have you opinion on what exactly their influence was on the events of the French revolution and the overthrow of the monarchy. Was this again a case of the influential few leading the manipulated masses in order to attain their own personal goals, their ideal of a "social" France without religion?

Author:  Monsieur Andre [ Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:43 am ]
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Well, I know that Freemasons were extremely influencial in politics in the 18th century, especially in America, but they were by no means "sinister." I have actually never even heard of any Freemason influence at the court or during the Revolution.

Author:  Gabrielle de Polastron [ Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:10 pm ]
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Well, a certain Elena Maria Vidal seems to be quite convinced that there were Freemason activities involved with the Frenh Revolution. For the curious, you can read about it here: http://teaattrianon.blogspot.com/2007/07/louis-xvi-marie-antoinette-and.html

But, be warned, she is a bit of a crazy.

Author:  Monsieur Andre [ Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:54 pm ]
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Elena Marie Vidal wrote her books from the "Catholic" perspective which I don't think is a very good idea, and I'm Catholic.

Author:  Therese [ Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:11 pm ]
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Louis XVI and Marie-Antoinette were Catholic, too, in case you had not heard. They were, in fact, practicing Catholics. Most novels and biographies ignore or minimize the religious faith of the king and queen, except for those of "a certain Elena Maria Vidal." (One might also include a certain Desmond Seward, a certain Deborah Cadbury, a certain Jean Chalon, a certain Vincent Cronin, a certain Nesta Webster, and a certain Antonia Fraser in this regard. Such authors also include information about the religious practices of the royal family.) Vidal's novels explore the king and queen's struggles from the point of view of their interior life. What is wrong with that?

As for freemasonry at Versailles, the court was rife with it, with Madame de Lamballe being the Grand-Maitresse of the Loges d'Adoption. I think the Vidal article above and the many sources linked to in the article (if one can read French) give a fairly balanced estimate of the influence of the masons upon the French Revolution. The masons should not be given more credit than is due for bringing about the revolt. But their ideal of a purely secularized society, unemcumbered by the traditions of Church and Crown, certainly did contribute to Liberyy, Equality and Fraternity, as anyone with a minimal knowledge od history should be able to see.

Author:  Therese [ Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:14 pm ]
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Gabrielle de Polastron wrote:
Well, a certain Elena Maria Vidal seems to be quite convinced that there were Freemason activities involved with the Frenh Revolution. For the curious, you can read about it here: http://teaattrianon.blogspot.com/2007/07/louis-xvi-marie-antoinette-and.html

But, be warned, she is a bit of a crazy.


Dear Gabrielle, anyone who would use a picture of Kirsten Dunst's mouth being stuffed with sweets as an avatar on a forum about the REAL Marie-Antoinette should not be calling serious scholars like 'a certain Elena Maria Vidal" a "bit of a crazy." Perhaps it takes one to know one, my dear.

As for Marie-Antoinette's religious faith, it is all expressed here, courtesy of " a certain Elena Maria Vidal, a bit of a crazy:"

http://teaattrianon.blogspot.com/2007/0 ... nette.html

Author:  Louis-Charles [ Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:31 pm ]
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I think too that freemasonry had a greater role as one thinks, for the faster evolution of the ideas and manners. There was much more freemason than one thinks, and many of them were noble and closed to Marie-Antoinette, like Lamballe and Joseph II.
They inevitably had an influence on the events I think. Thus Elena Maria Vidal is not crazy :wink:

Author:  Therese [ Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:31 pm ]
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Here what Marie-Antoinette herself wrote to her brother the Emperor Leopold (as cited in the article by Madame Vidal):

"Be well on your guard where you are with regard to all associations of Freemasons. You must already have been warned that it is by this means that all monsters here count on attaining the same end in every country. Oh, God, preserve my Fatherland and you from such misfortunes." ( Lettres de Marie-Antoinette, edited by Maxime de la Rocheterie, 2 vol., 1895)

So the queen herself thought that the masons had something to do with the Revolution.

Author:  Louis-Charles [ Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:39 pm ]
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Interesting letter indeed thank you Therese! :D
I did not remember it, do you know its date? (1790, 1791 or 1792)

Author:  Therese [ Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:13 pm ]
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Yes, L-C, according to Madame Vidal's article it was dated August, 1790.

Author:  Adrienne [ Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:32 am ]
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Gabrielle de Polastron wrote:
Well, a certain Elena Maria Vidal seems to be quite convinced that there were Freemason activities involved with the French Revolution. For the curious, you can read about it here: http://teaattrianon.blogspot.com/2007/07/louis-xvi-marie-antoinette-and.html

But, be warned, she is a bit of a crazy.


Gabrielle, as an aside, I think you should be careful about describing people as 'crazy' ... To question a particular writer's scholarship is one thing, but you don't appear to be doing that. I'd suggest that it might be more useful to us all to restrict our comments to the topic at hand.

Thanks everyone, as you were :) *takes of moderator's hat*

Author:  Monsieur Andre [ Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:53 am ]
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I was aware of that, of course they were Catholics. Who wanted to usurp Elizabeth I's throne for the sake of returning England to the ancient Catholic religion? Mary of Scots. And what was she once Queen of? France.

Author:  Therese [ Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:12 am ]
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Monsieur Andre wrote:
I was aware of that, of course they were Catholics. Who wanted to usurp Elizabeth I's throne for the sake of returning England to the ancient Catholic religion? Mary of Scots. And what was she once Queen of? France.


Yes, Mary Queen of Scots was indeed a Catholic, too.

But, alas, this has nothing to do with freemasonry at Versailles.....

Author:  Monsieur Andre [ Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:43 am ]
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I was just proving my point, 'tis all. :wink:

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