Marie Antoinette Online
  • FORUM
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:06 pm



Reply to topic  [ 48 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 monarchy or MA?- 
Author Message
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:21 am
Posts: 1545
Location: paris
Post 
I agree in a sense Thérèse, in as far as religion was in part possibly a screen for him to hide behind to avoid taking the brave decisions that his illness (I imagine you mean depression?) prevented him from taking. As you know MA was tearing her hair out at times, especially when he tucked into a good meal after the 10th August riot.

_________________
"Fidelité et constance, sans espoir de récompense."


Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:09 pm
Profile
Comte/Comtesse
Comte/Comtesse
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 11:57 pm
Posts: 74
Location: USA
Post 
baron de batz wrote:
I would be interested in hearing the reasons why you don't like monarchy as an institution...before I run you through with my sword! (Only joking!!)

Monarchy is a complex matter. We have to ask ourselves if the idea of monarchy is still feasible in modern society with modern technology and the near impossibility for any figure of state to enjoy any privacy. If MA had lived today, she would have been exposed to slander and attacks everyday on the Internet! In my opinion, and this is as far as I can see a new element in this forum, the idea of monarchy and religion, in particular the Christian religion, as we are talking about European monarchies, are indissociable.


I have not thought about it but there does seem to be a link between monarchy and religion.

To the extent that is so, that's another reason i prefer republics.

I dont like the idea of a state religion. I like the American Bill of Rights and the 1st amendment protection against establishment of a state religion - the right of every American to worship or not worship as he or she chooses.


Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:20 pm
Profile YIM WWW
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:04 pm
Posts: 2266
Post 
Religion was not a "screen" for him, Monsieur le baron. It was a sincere conviction, or else he would not have vetoed the order of the National Assembly to send the non-juring priests to French Guyana. The veto fused the attack on the Tuileries in June 1792. Louis knew this would happen, but he did what he thought was the right thing.

Yes, the king probably suffered from depression. Also, in the winter of 1790 he was spitting up blood. Yes, he had health problems, which he attributed to being deprived of the strenuous excercise to which he was accustomed.

I would recommend reading Bernard Fay's biography of Louis XVI as well as the writings of the Coursacs to get a more accurate picture of him than the one you have.

_________________
I forgive all my enemies the harm they have done me.


Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:21 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:54 am
Posts: 2040
Post 
Quote:
I would recommend reading Bernard Fay's biography of Louis XVI as well as the writings of the Coursacs to get a more accurate picture of him than the one you have.


You are right, Therese ! I once read Louis XVI's coronation description. It is a very strong and emotional ceremony, a true holy ritual, with the death and resurrection of the everlasting king.

A man having experienced this initiation ritual must not longer remain the same. For sure Louis, being a very spiritual person, deeply felt this ritual he went through.

He considered himself chosen by God and having a sacred mission. He died for it, sacrifying himself for his people. This was the way he felt it, it is obvious from his testament.

_________________
te voir encore me rappelle à la vie


Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:21 am
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:04 pm
Posts: 2266
Post 
Yes, Pimprenelle, I have read the same. His sincerity at his coronation as he uttered aloud his oath moved many of the spectators, including Marie-Antoinette, who wept so much she had to leave her seat in the gallery.

_________________
I forgive all my enemies the harm they have done me.


Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:22 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:21 am
Posts: 1545
Location: paris
Post 
Madame,

You are absolutely right that Louis XVI's religion was sincere. I never doubted that and the phrasing of my supposition that religion may have been a screen for him is indeed inaccurate. What I really wanted to say is that there is a little of the Hamlet in Louis XVI in that "conscience makes cowards of us all" - his inaction in the face of adversity is, I maintain, in his sub-conscious somewhat justified by his enacting of a rôle of martyr, which I have to say may have been in some ways easier to do than to face up to the matters in hand, instead of relying on his wife to do so. Look at the way he repeatedly reads the story of Charles I at this time, as if he were empathizing to the point of writing a similar script for himself. There wasn't just the future of the State at stake but also that of his family, and he did not fight like he may have done to save them. Depression and within this state the real belief that maybe death was that which the Almighty had in store for him in his Holy plan, led Louis XVI to go to his death in a far different way than MA who fought her fate right to the end because of her will to stay and protect her childen. I shall definitely read Bernard Fay's biography, thank you Madame for the recommendation, and perhaps this will enlighten me further.

_________________
"Fidelité et constance, sans espoir de récompense."


Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:25 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:04 pm
Posts: 2266
Post 
M. le baron, I see what you are saying. Nesta Webster makes the point that Louis also thought that once they killed him, they would let his family go. And don't forget, he did try to escape with his family.

_________________
I forgive all my enemies the harm they have done me.


Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:38 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse

Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:32 pm
Posts: 376
Post 
I feel that in this day and age, Monarchy is not a necessary institution. Other than act as a figurehead, I am not quite sure what Britain's royal family DO (there is a widespread myth that they 'bring in the tourists' which I think is untrue. A survey of visitors to the UK that I saw showed that just as many would come here as previously even if there was no royal family..).

_________________
Favourite French King poll


Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:05 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:54 am
Posts: 2040
Post 
Quote:
What I really wanted to say is that there is a little of the Hamlet in Louis XVI in that "conscience makes cowards of us all" - his inaction in the face of adversity is, I maintain, in his sub-conscious somewhat justified by his enacting of a rôle of martyr, which I have to say may have been in some ways easier to do than to face up to the matters in hand, instead of relying on his wife to do so.

Interesting comments... I have to disagree, however, deeply. First of all, in my opinion, activity/inactivity are no reactions that we choose. We are, by temper, active or inactive, and not responsible for this.

For instance, having studied Marie Antoinette's psychology for years, I think she was rather of the active kind, and that this supernatural courage that held her was due to her temper. She no doubt inheritated it from her mother...

That's for the psychological side of the problem.

Now, back to Louis XVI. Are you so sure of your analyse ? Have you read Joel Felix's book, already ? It is fascinating... His analyses take us miles and miles away from this apathetic man you describe...

Louis XVI, following Felix, was a man of strong will, he made his own decisions. As a consequence to this development, we find a rather discreet Marie Antoinette, who alway remained in the shadow of his king, and served him.

Louis wanted to meet people, and sent Marie Antoinette as his emissary. So he did with Mirabeau, Barnave... so he did with the escape to Montmedy, his own plan. To schedule this flight, the king used the queen for transmitting his orders to Fersen and Bouillé, and the others.

Interesting view, isn't it ?

_________________
te voir encore me rappelle à la vie


Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:14 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:04 pm
Posts: 2266
Post 
Pimprenelle, I totally agree with your analysis.

Webster says: "Louis XVI was by temperament and conviction a Liberal....Devoted as he was to the people...he could not imagine that in the end the appeal to reason would not prove wiser than the appeal to force." (p 43) And so he made concessions.

Then she quotes the Comte de la Marck: "'Emboldened by their successes, the revolutionaries did not hesitate to designate Marie-Antoinette as the great culprit because they guessed she had in her an energy and a courage which would offer a firm resistance to them.'" (p 47)

From Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette during the Revolution by Nesta Webster

Hence the campaign of libel against the queen which endures to this day.

_________________
I forgive all my enemies the harm they have done me.


Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:38 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:21 am
Posts: 1545
Location: paris
Post action or inaction
Thanks for this, that's why I'm here.

I throw my humble stone out into the lake and learn from the ripples coming back to me....and I've lready got a month's reading!

_________________
"Fidelité et constance, sans espoir de récompense."


Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:45 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:04 pm
Posts: 2266
Post 
We all learn from each other!

_________________
I forgive all my enemies the harm they have done me.


Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:28 pm
Profile
Noble
Noble
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 6:06 pm
Posts: 12
Post 
WHY ONLY MODERATORS CAN WRITE NEW POSTS?i have interesting new posts but i cannot write as im not moderator..so what kind of forum is this?do u think this is good way?if people cannot write new informations or posts then this forum is like dead :shock:


Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:23 am
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:21 am
Posts: 1545
Location: paris
Post 
Apparently one can ask a moderator permission to open a new forum....suppose it stops the site getting out of hand.

_________________
"Fidelité et constance, sans espoir de récompense."


Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:16 am
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:54 am
Posts: 2040
Post 
Quote:
WHY ONLY MODERATORS CAN WRITE NEW POSTS?i have interesting new posts but i cannot write as im not moderator..so what kind of forum is this?do u think this is good way?if people cannot write new informations or posts then this forum is like dead

As I already explained to you on another topic, it has been discussed here :
http://www.marie-antoinette.org/forum/v ... t=adrienne

Please find my message to you here :
http://www.marie-antoinette.org/forum/v ... 7&start=30

_________________
te voir encore me rappelle à la vie


Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:53 am
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 48 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware for PTF.