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 weight and size(centimeters) 
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Comte/Comtesse
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Yeah, it was pretty bad back then, in fact that's the reason women got the reputation of being weak, having corsets so tight compressed all their internal organs and prevented blood from circulating properly, so women would faint a lot.

Although, in a lot of the later paintings Antoinette doesn't seem to be wearing a corset, or at least not one that's very tight. I hope for her sake she wasn't because those things are just awful! :shock:

There's a woman in America who's in the Guinness Book of Records for achieving the smallest waist with a corset. I think it might be the 14 inches you heard about Moose. Of course she doesn't stay in the corset for long!

Although, women weren't the only ones who wore corsets, some of the men would too! At least the dandys did!

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Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:01 am
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I relly wonder why girls enjoy so much hurting their own bodies...


Good question....a problem of tradition, mode, and to want to do like everyone... :?

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Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:03 am
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I don't think women enjoyed hurting their bodies. They needed to to conform to the fashion , even now. But really, i dont think that anorexic women like to harm their bodies, that disease ( because thats what it is ) is metaphysical, like a compulsion can barely be repressed. I have known many an anorexic, and the mental suffering that they go through is unbeleivably intense, even more so than the physical pain that extreme hunger brings on.No one actually WANTS to be anorexic, though to an extent , people have alwaysa wanted to conform to beaty and unfortunately, us women usually end up suffering.

What are the calfs that the men wore that you talk about Pim?


Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:22 pm
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Well... men were supposed to suit to a specific ideal too. As Locks of Louis said, some of them wore corsets too. They used make up, hairpieces, and falses, if necessary. They could wear false calfs when theirs were not curved enough.

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Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:52 pm
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I have known some anorexics for whom it is the ultimate form of self control - and self abuse.

But yeah, I guess if fashion says that women have to have tiny waists and if one is the Queen and young and attractive, one really has to conform

Or - she could have started a different fashion I suppose :(

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Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:06 pm
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she could have started a different fashion I suppose

No, precisely, she couldn't I am afraid... I think Marie Antoinette actually had no power at all, and was supposed to have a lot. That's the problem !

I tend to think that she could not decide for fashions, as she could not for politics. For politics because she was but the queen, and for fashions because traditions were too important.

This old court did not want to change anything, unless they had decided to, and hey found it suitable. See... even for those "en gaulle" dresses. Marie Antoinette did not invent this fashion. Other ladies in the court dressed up so.

I guess all Marie Antoinette's subtle art was to seem to start a fashion, while she actually was following the storm.

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Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:14 pm
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But surely if she had started dressing radically differently, or something, or doing her hair a different way, the court ladies would have joined in?

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Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:24 pm
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But surely if she had started dressing radically differently, or something, or doing her hair a different way, the court ladies would have joined in?

I am not so sure... See two fashions generally attributed to Marie Antoinette : huge poufs and huge paniers. Actually, those poufs existed before, as well as this tendancy to enlarge them. Idem for the paniers.

Marie Therese is angry about those feathers her daughter wears, writing that they would be suitable for a comedian but not for a queen. Marie Antoinette replies that this is the way at court, and that it would appear extraordinary not to wear them.

You can interpret Marie Antoinette's answer as a lie to her mother, of course... But I rather think that Antoinette told the truth. She actually had to slip herself into existing ways. Any radical change would cause... a court revolution !

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Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:34 pm
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I think that MA was more of a fashion setter Pim. She rather led from the front to the extent that many ladies ran up huge debts trying to keep up with her. I think that she had an innate sense of what looked good, and was a natural interior decorator for example, almost modern in her ability to make a place look good without looking gawdy. And this stretched to her dress sense, and as she had a decent budget behind her, well she always looked great! But I don't think she did much "fitting in" for long, she soon took the lead fashion rôle.

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Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:16 pm
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That's the way we traditionally see her, indeed.

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Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:32 pm
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im sorry pim,but to my eyes, in the pictures where Marie Antoinete's waist looks small, her bust does not seem that big...but in the pictures where her bust loooks really large, her waist looks rather "biggish."


Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:15 pm
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For the other Americans, I checked a translator and that would be 22 inch waist and 42 inch bust.

But that wasn't outrageous back then. In the days when women wore corsets all day some girls could go way smaller. This was 200 years before MA but this sort of thing was not uncommon in her day:


Image


That was Elizabeth I. I've seen her corsets on display so I know for a fact her waist really was that small. Her waist was smaller than her thigh. Wearing a corset your whole life can do that.

I think MA was a thin woman, but for those days she wasn't that thin. But again, she didn't like to wear corsets and would avoid them when possible, so her waist wasn't as tiny as the girls who wore a corset all the time.


Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:13 am
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You say that MA was thin??? WEll she wasnt fat ( not until later at least) but i have never personally found her thin. She seemed more filled out and full figured to me- thin wasnt even in back then. I think they liked slim girls , but with considerable curves. I actually think that the slim girls of back then might be considered average or even a little above now.As far as the waist to hip ratio, like it was said earlier , it really didnt seem all that big of a difference to me...

22 inches for a waist , inst that small is it ? my own is 21.5 so it couldn't have been as teensy as in those pictures you put up PIm.


Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:55 am
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oceane wrote:
You say that MA was thin??? WEll she wasnt fat ( not until later at least) but i have never personally found her thin. She seemed more filled out and full figured to me- thin wasnt even in back then. I think they liked slim girls , but with considerable curves. I actually think that the slim girls of back then might be considered average or even a little above now.As far as the waist to hip ratio, like it was said earlier , it really didnt seem all that big of a difference to me...

22 inches for a waist , inst that small is it ? my own is 21.5 so it couldn't have been as teensy as in those pictures you put up PIm.


Well by my standards 22 inches is pretty tiny. But I'm talking by today's standards. Most models are 23 or 24 inches and most of them are quite unhealthy. But I'm talking for a tall woman with curves like Marie. Of course in those days 22 inches wasn't as skinny as it is now.


Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:17 am
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These measurments have been taken my Mme Elofe, Marie Antoinette's milliner... so, girls ? Did she lie ? :roll:

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Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:54 am
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