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 The Life of Axel von Fersen 
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Hans Axel, I haven't read the Herman Lindqvist's book myself, so I don't know what he tells about Marie Antoinette and Axel's friendship. I just heard it's quite interesting book. :)
And yes, I have heard that some of the historians think that Axel was the father of Louis XVII. Ridiculous.

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Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:06 am
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Not historians, for there are no historical evidence, not even doubts. Just the fact that Louis Charles was born 9 months after this huge feast given for Gustav III in Trianon garden, that Fersen attended. :roll:

Those who dream about Fersen being the father of little king Louis XVII are but second hand novels writers.

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Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:11 am
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Pimprenelle wrote:
Not historians, for there are no historical evidence, not even doubts. Just the fact that Louis Charles was born 9 months after this huge feast given for Gustav III in Trianon garden, that Fersen attended. :roll:

Those who dream about Fersen being the father of little king Louis XVII are but second hand novels writers.


Herman Lindqvist, who believes in this story, only has some small indications for Fersen being the father of Louis XVII. I do not believe in them even a bit, of course not, but I can write about the "indications" anyway, because it's interesting for us to know (all this is according to Lindqvist):
1. Louis Charles was born 9 months after the party in Trianon (see above).
2. He was given the title "Duke of Normandy", though no French prince had been given this title since the Middle Ages. The special thing with this is that Normandy was created by vikings and it is known for that. Viking = Sweden = Fersen... A far-fetched explanation, it you ask me.
3. When Louis Charles was born Louis XVI wrote in his journal that it had happened just as when "his own son" had been born, referring to Louis-Joseph's birth. With this Lindqvist means that Louis XVI did not believe that Louis Charles was his own son.

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Sun Nov 04, 2007 3:21 pm
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3. When Louis Charles was born Louis XVI wrote in his journal that it had happened just as when "his own son" had been born, referring to Louis-Joseph's birth. With this Lindqvist means that Louis XVI did not believe that Louis Charles was his own son.

That indicates only that Lindqvist does not know the court of France. The king called his elder son only "my son". When Joseph died, he called Charles "my son".

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2. He was given the title "Duke of Normandy", though no French prince had been given this title since the Middle Ages. The special thing with this is that Normandy was created by vikings and it is known for that. Viking = Sweden = Fersen... A far-fetched explanation, it you ask me.

Why not call the boy "Axel", then, since the king of France was so proud of not being the father of this new born in the great Fersen family !

Nonsense... :roll:

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Sun Nov 04, 2007 4:00 pm
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I hope you do not mind my opinion, dear Pimprenelle, but I do have something to say. I recall hearing once that Louis Charles looked quite a bit like his father and his father's family, and was just the slightest bit fat, so I highly doubt that Fersen was the father of little Louis XVII. Plus, Marie Antoinette would not betray her husband, I am sure.


Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:11 am
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Ok, we completely are in agreement about this ! :D

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Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:07 am
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Pimprenelle wrote:
Not historians, for there are no historical evidence, not even doubts. Just the fact that Louis Charles was born 9 months after this huge feast given for Gustav III in Trianon garden, that Fersen attended. :roll:

Those who dream about Fersen being the father of little king Louis XVII are but second hand novels writers.

I totally agree, Pimprenelle! :)

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Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:24 am
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Madame Vigée-Le Brun wrote:
I hope you do not mind my opinion, dear Pimprenelle, but I do have something to say. I recall hearing once that Louis Charles looked quite a bit like his father and his father's family, and was just the slightest bit fat, so I highly doubt that Fersen was the father of little Louis XVII. Plus, Marie Antoinette would not betray her husband, I am sure.


Yes, I have heard this, too. They say Louis-Charles was a distinct blend of Louis XV and Marie-Josephe de Saxe.

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Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:52 pm
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I am glad you guys agree with me. Fersen + Marie Antoinette = Louis XVII? Why, that is something Carolly Erikson would have put in her book, eh? :roll: :lol:


Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:13 pm
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Post Re: The Life of Axel von Fersen
Does anyone know if Fersen had children. I am half way trhough reading one of the books I have about him, I did skim the book and for what I see there are no mention of children. I was wondering if there were any decendants of Fersen, did he have children?


Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:34 pm
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Post Re: The Life of Axel von Fersen
jadean wrote:
Does anyone know if Fersen had children. I am half way trhough reading one of the books I have about him, I did skim the book and for what I see there are no mention of children. I was wondering if there were any decendants of Fersen, did he have children?


Well he didn't have any children and he never married. Though there are a couple of possible "bastards" linked to Fersen. No one had his name though and it's hard to know if he was the real father to them or how many they were... The Fersen family - through Axel and his siblings - is also not "alive" today.

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Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:42 pm
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Post Re: The Life of Axel von Fersen
Hans Axel wrote:
jadean wrote:
Does anyone know if Fersen had children. I am half way trhough reading one of the books I have about him, I did skim the book and for what I see there are no mention of children. I was wondering if there were any decendants of Fersen, did he have children?


Well he didn't have any children and he never married. Though there are a couple of possible "bastards" linked to Fersen. No one had his name though and it's hard to know if he was the real father to them or how many they were... The Fersen family - through Axel and his siblings - is also not "alive" today.


Thank you for the (quick) reply.


Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:08 pm
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Post Re: The Life of Axel von Fersen
Well, Axel, Françoise Kermina affirms that Fersen never fathered any bastards. :shock:

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Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:38 am
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Post Re: The Life of Axel von Fersen
Pim wrote:

This Swedish gentleman had an extremely bad opinion of the French people, he considered they were stupid and changing. He was completely reactionary and gave Marie Antoinette terrible advises.

But he was not alone in that Pim. Correspondence between the Queen and Fersen clearly shows at that tormented time at the Tuileries palace when Marie Antoinette and her children were subject to the uncontrolled attacks of yobbish Parisians, that she too started to consider them as "gueux", the words she uses, or Plebeians. And she was absolutely right in thinking that, as these people were quite clearly scum. It is not a sufficient excuse to be poor or part of the starving working classes to attack and terrorize women and small children, or to call them "louveteaux" or wolf cubs! Well it is true that the she wolf will defend her cubs!! I think we over-estimate the Queen's attachment to the French nation , she was intelligent with her back to the wall, but I think that she had had enough of them at the end. She admittedly said a lot of things to appease the nation during her trial (including clear lies) and before her transfer to the Temple prison, but these were things that I believe were said to try and save her skin and more importantly to try to survive for her children. For me, even though she probably maintained initially some vague and erroneous notions of the Revolution being a Parisian phenomenon and that the good French people were to be found in the far flung reaches of the realm, the love affair between her and France was well and truly over. It is true that she was the mother of the heir to the throne, but she probably had realized by then that he would never rule, and would she have even wanted him to in the circumstances? Marie Antoinette had become a mother, more than anything else, without firm national or patriotic roots, fighting for her cubs like a lioness. And for me this partly explains this extraordinary frindship with another foreigner like her, Fersen, with whom she could share this incredulity at the behaviour of the French nation. Fersen was who he was, a womaniser, a self centred nobleman who believed in the Royal cause, but he did spend a fortune to try to save the Royal family, and his rôle in the escape was brilliant, a "sans fautes". He tried, in so doing risking his own life, to repay to the sovereigns the enormous debt he owed them because of the favours he had received. It is however quite normal that he should try and recover that money. It is not possible to judge Fersen in the same light as today either, this was a practical age in many ways, and in a sense his practical reaction to his future, even at such a dire moment for the Queen, seems to underline what you say about their relationship being a sort of special friendship and perhaps no more. It is not the reaction of an erstwhile lover.

As for the Brunswick manifesto, it was ill advised and not sanctioned by the Royal family it is true, but the Queen herself in her illicit and basically treasonable correspondence with the foreign powers, shows that she felt their only hope was in scaring the French republicans by a show of force on the frontiers. And that was basically the idea of the Brunswick manifesto, even if the latter went much further in the way of actual violent threat.

As for the French people being stupid and changing, the first adjective is no doubt far too harsh, the second however entirely true. Three returns to a monarchical system in tbe following 50 years, after such a bloody revolution, seem to amply prove that....

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Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:03 am
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Post Re: The Life of Axel von Fersen
Pimprenelle wrote:
Well, Axel, Françoise Kermina affirms that Fersen never fathered any bastards. :shock:


I didn't know that.

Hans Axel, do you know with whom the alleged 'bastards' were for, the women they allegedly for?


Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:36 pm
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