Yes, absolutely Torin. I'll probably get pelted with tomatoes for bringing this up, but in an era of arranged marriages, while affairs were frowned upon -- especially by the devoutly religious -- they were still very common. It was a sort of don't-ask-don't-tell environment.

Yes, and there is a new one in English written by a British scholar. It is mentioned in the Literature section, I will find it later.

Torin I agree with Therese : The absence of confirmation of a fact should not let believe that this fact took place... for me 99% is a good estimate... I am sure that even the revolutionists did not believe in it!
Nothing in the writings or the behavior of Marie-Antoinette lets consider such relations... nothing... it is not a lampoon which will change that

And Marie-Antoinette was always faithful to Louis XVI... all the historians will say it... only the doubt with fersen existe..it is besides the only doubt which is given by the historians

Therese wrote:



Thank you!

Speaking of the pamphlets still doing their work, I remember coming across a review of the new movie entitled, "The Austrian Whore Perfectly Cast."

By the way, does anyone know the origins of the phrase underground press? I traced it back to the Dutch undergound press of the 40's. It seems conceivable to me that the term might be a reference to Marat operating his press from the Catacombs.

In Chantal Thomas's Farewell, My Queen, there is a scene where two men discuss the Queen in the garden and Agathe overhears them. Some of things said were quite revolting!

Here is the link to the review of Simon Burrows' book:

http://film.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0 ... 21,00.html

I cannot believe the hatred of people when I read these 'pamphlet's' and other media junk that was created and said about MA. I was watching a documentary on her a week ago, and as it concluded on her death, it said something about some newspaper press compaired her to a criminal who know's they were guilty when she held steadfast and never cried or showed fear whilst being paraded around Paris right before her beheading. Does anybody actually know what it was they said?

I was so disguisted with that, that people couldn't stand that she was a Queen till the end, never wavering once when others like them, would fall.

in the books i was reading about her, it was because there wasnt an heir to the throne.

There were different people who were interested in attacking Marie Antoinette. First of all, those who wanted to destroy the monarchy for instauring a republic. Some people already had this ideal. They tried to destroy the monarchy by destroying its weakest lonk, which was Marie Antoinette, of course. Wasn't she an Austrian woman ? Two terrible failures ! Woman and foreigner... Austrian, from this country of eternal enemies !

Then, there were those princes, who wanted the crown for themselves, Provence (Louis' brother) or Orleans (his cousin). They were very happy for 7 years, for the king's marriage was not consummated. But then finally came children... Then, what could those people do ? They spread the rumor that Marie Antoinette was a frivolous woman, so that her children were fathered by anybody but Louis. Their aim was to put suspicion on the royal heirs.

None of them really cared for Marie Antoinette. She counted for nothing. She was just an instruments in political hands.

I'm not sure that the paphleters consciously set out to destroy the monarchy. It was, I think, sth very mercantile at first : lampoons were not free, they were pretty cheap though (far cheaper than newspapers), which explains their large diffusion. It was a matter of money, not a matter of ideology. They are still many newspapers or TV programms that destroy the lives of celebrities or sir up trouble for politicians whithout meaning to.
I don't utterly understand Marie-Antoinette's reaction to this. I don't grasp why she let things worsen like that whithout even trying to make some "propaganda". I think that it's one of her failure as a queen : although criticisms were often unjustified (apart maybe from thoses concerning her extravagance) she should have taken care of her public reputation. But Louis XVI didn't either ... it is true however, that public opinion was a new concept at that time ... Maybe sb has an explaination to that ?

Do any of those horrrible rhymes survived till these days? It would be interesting to read some of them......

Indeed. You can find some in the book written by Chantal Thomas about Marie Antoinette through pamphlets : the Wicked Queen.

You can also go on gallica site (French national library) and search for "Marie Antoinette", you'll get horrible pamphlets among serious memoirs.

Here you have one :
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/saphisme/s1 ... aires.html