Marie Antoinette Online
  • FORUM
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:34 pm



Reply to topic  [ 35 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 What went wrong with her upbringing? 
Author Message
Noble
Noble
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:31 am
Posts: 14
Location: Vilnius, Lithuania
Post 
Thank you, this explains a lot!

_________________
I would believe only in a god who could dance.


Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:43 pm
Profile YIM
Duc/Duchesse
Duc/Duchesse
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:27 am
Posts: 175
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Post Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?
You posed a very interesting question, Elle, when you wondered if Marie's destiny might have beed somewhat different if she had conceived children much earlier in her marriage. I think that this might possibly have made a real difference. Not isolating herself from the majority of courtiers might also have helped. I will think more about this.
Ray

_________________
"...little did I dream that I should have lived to see such disasters fallen upon her...I thought ten thousand swords must have leaped from their scabbards to avenge even a look that threatened her with insult."
Edmund Burke, (1790)


Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:11 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:36 pm
Posts: 903
Location: italy
Post Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?
Yes, I also think so. She would have been more popular, at least...and she would have avoided many rumours that were fatal to her

_________________
Vera incessu patuit dea


Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:47 pm
Profile
Comte/Comtesse
Comte/Comtesse
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 11:52 pm
Posts: 36
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Post Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?
I don't think it would have made a difference if she got pregnant earlier. Her life-style stirred the prejudice and lead to exaggeration of true events and made-up lies.

Oh, of course France was already in debt in Louis the XV's reign, but nobody did anything about it, the spending wasn't cut short, they just closed their eyes and looked the other way. :whistle:

Marie Antoinette had to pay dearly for her husbands lacking interest in politic and economy.


Quote:
during her trial she said she did not know the country was in disaster because when she asked for money she received double what she asked for


A statement like that shows Marie Antoinette's naivety and ignorance. She could have known if she had been interested in it. if she could have changed anything, I don't know but she maybe would have been more careful in encouraging the rumors about her extravagant life-style. she might wouldn't have lost her head.

But everything was lost anyways after the attempted escape . :cry:

_________________
J'ai tout vu, j'ai tout entendu, j'ai tout oublié


Tue May 31, 2011 12:18 am
Profile
Comte/Comtesse
Comte/Comtesse
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:15 pm
Posts: 34
Location: tucson arizona
Post Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?
Yes that is very true after the escape everything changed and what little hope of their surival was down the drain so many what if's :(

_________________
Let the queen herself have the last word


Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:38 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:21 am
Posts: 1545
Location: paris
Post Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?
You quote Orléans from a post made by another member back in 2007, about MA supposedly having said that she didn't know that the country was in a disaster as she had her "cassette" doubled!

I'm not aware of the Queen ever having said that, and I know the minutes of the trial pretty well. I refute the fact that she ever said anything of the sort, which would have been naive in the extreme, given the circumstances.

Many people on this forum make somewhat extavagant claims, and do not check their sources. I advise you always to check the veracity of such statements first, and not to take things at face value. Otherwise all we are doing here is further propagating the diffamation that MA suffered 220 years ago.

_________________
"Fidelité et constance, sans espoir de récompense."


Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:56 am
Profile
Royalty
Royalty
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:10 pm
Posts: 710
Post Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?
Orleans87 wrote:
I don't think it would have made a difference if she got pregnant earlier. Her life-style stirred the prejudice and lead to exaggeration of true events and made-up lies.


I think that it could have made all the difference in the world if MA had got pregnant much sooner. It was during those years that she'd make many of the mistakes (in the eyes of her enemies)that would come back to haunt her later. Almost any woman knows that motherhood changes a woman. Her child becomes her focus. Had MA had the focus of a child early on, all the partying and craziness probably would have been minimal and not alot for gossip. And people would have viewed her as a mother not a slut. There would have been no fodder for all the jokes and comments made about them sexually - which had to have been extermely embarassing for them both. Furthermore, because of sexual failure rumors started circulating about MA having sex with others.....which leads to the thought that she had emasculated the King. I think that this one thing - the idea she emasculated Louis - caused so much of the hatred French men developed toward Marie Antoinette. She ended up a slut in the eyes of men and men also never talk nicely of sluts. I think the role of a mother early on could have saved her so much torment during the Revolution.


Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:58 pm
Profile
Royalty
Royalty
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:35 am
Posts: 1064
Location: Australia
Post Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?
I agree! The role of the Queen as the Mother of France was sacred.

_________________
“Love is the emblem of eternity: it confounds all notion of time: effaces all memory of a beginning, all fear of an end.”
- Germaine de Staël


Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:11 am
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:21 am
Posts: 1545
Location: paris
Post Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?
It would have changed the whole course of events and of her life. Which is why Louis XVI is to blame in not being forceful enough, damn it for not being man enough!! Even if she did all she could to discourage him, he just had to show her who was boss! Which is quite obviously what she secretly desired all along. Can you imagine Louis XIV pussyfooting around like that?...no pun intended!

_________________
"Fidelité et constance, sans espoir de récompense."


Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:31 am
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:42 am
Posts: 653
Location: Paris
Post Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?
baron de batz wrote:
It would have changed the whole course of events and of her life. Which is why Louis XVI is to blame in not being forceful enough, damn it for not being man enough!! Even if she did all she could to discourage him, he just had to show her who was boss! Which is quite obviously what she secretly desired all along. Can you imagine Louis XIV pussyfooting around like that?...no pun intended!


Agreed.

_________________
" Perfection is not achieved when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.


Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:59 am
Profile
Post Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?
What is most critical to remember, is that this girl was not the sister that had originally been set to be the mate to the Dauphin of France.
That sister became ill with smallpox, and when that marked the girl's skin, Antoinette, who was allowed to be less diligent in her studies, was then submitted as a substitute.
The French came to look her over, and the girl was then put through a round of painful dental surgeries to make her more acceptable- it's a wonder that the same thing couldn't be done for Louis, eh?
Her mother then had to put her through a boot camp of sorts to prepare her, but as someone noted the more laid back Austrian Court was a very different place to the French court.
It's amazing she did as well as she did, considering.


Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:36 pm
Royalty
Royalty
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:10 pm
Posts: 710
Post Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?
Welcome here Derynirose.....please introduce yourself.

baron de batz wrote:
he just had to show her who was boss!


Yes, it's true. MA was in no position to resist Louis' sexual advances - she had to submit. And...if Louis had been a man, he would have had sex with his wife - probably resulting in a much earlier pregnancy - thus averting so much trouble.


Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:20 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:42 am
Posts: 653
Location: Paris
Post Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?
I am not sure I agree with that (what a surprise ! :lol: ). I think there are many ways to refuse to have sex other than actively resisting. Being too inactive for instance may be unsettling to an unexperienced and coy young man. It is also established that on a few occasions, Marie-Antoinette shut her door so that Louis could not visit her. This was rather unheard of for a Queen.

I do agree however that Louis ought to have displayed more authority towards his wife. But that was no easy thing to do.


Dernirose welcome ! I do agree with your comment. I might have misunderstood your post but I got the impression you slightly mixed up two archduchesses.

Elisabeth was the one that was disfigured by the smallpox. She used to be very beautiful and was to marry Louis XV, who proved rather uninterested in the project in spite of the girl's good looks. She was subsequently sent to a convent.

Marie-Antonia in fact replaced Maria-Carolina on the throne of France after the death of Maria-Josepha (who indeed died of the smallpox). Maria-Josepha was to marry the future king of Naples, so after her death everything got switched, with Maria-Carolina being sent to Naples and Maria-Antonia to Versailles. So there !)


I also think that the fact that Maria-Antonia was not to become a queen in the first place was very significant. Her mother bent over backwards to catch up with the girl's education and was very aware of the girl's shortcomings. Hence the constant worries and never ending spying when Marie-Antoinette was in Versailles.

In fact, Marie-Antoinette had been rather ill bred. But she did endeavor to improve her behaviour in the course of her life, which is no easy thing to do.

_________________
" Perfection is not achieved when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.


Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:00 am
Profile
Royalty
Royalty
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:10 pm
Posts: 710
Post Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?
My comment was general - she did have to submit sexually, she was sent to France to produce heirs - her job, so to speak. Of course she could have avoided having sex with him on occasion, BUT - she still had to have sex with him in general.


Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:10 pm
Profile
Comte/Comtesse
Comte/Comtesse
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:54 pm
Posts: 32
Post Re: What went wrong with her upbringing?
Well... Instead of asking "What went wrong with her upbringing?" one should rather ask what was wrong with him. She was told not to interfere in anything, to be gentle and kind and leave everything to him. He was the future king and in charge. They were both very young when they got married, and this may explain at least in part why it took them so long. But according to what MA wrote to her mother she was trying very hard to make him love her and to get pregnant. And I do believe that.

In my view Louis was very indecisive all his life. He was always (at least) one step behind the developments, one step too late. Perhaps due to a lack of interest. A lack of energy? An illness? Who knows...

There was a vacuum of power that he did not fill. Others did. And in the end, he chose to be a lamb rather than a butcher. Something that makes him an honorable man in spite of all shortcomings he may have had.

P.S.: Ever wondered what would have happened if instead of MA someone like her mother had married the king of France? Or if Louis XVI had the personality of Henry VIII? :angel1:

_________________
Living Well Is The Best Revenge
George Herbert


Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:42 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 35 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware for PTF.