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 Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette? 
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Exactly! I think, from what I've heard, Lever does the same. Bending to their writer's hopes and expectations. I would choose accuracy over money any day.


Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:38 pm
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
I think it is possible that Maria A. loved Axel Fersen and that they may have been lovers in a period when she was very lonely and unhappy in her marrige. But it is true that she loved her husband and respected him that showed the best during revolution and her being devoted to him and refusing to live him. Count Fersen helped them to arrange escape, during which they had caught, and even went with them during first days of travel. He said - I live to serve her. Maybe they were just close friends but it is possible that, in some period of her life, they were more than that.

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Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:32 pm
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
I think, Marija Vera, that what Fersen said about Antoinette tells us more about what his feelings for her were and not much about her relation to him. Fersen really loved and adored Antoinette, but that doesn't mean that he loved her in a romantical way and it certainly does not mean that Antoinette loved Fersen. There are no true evidence that they were involved as lovers. If they would have been lovers, on the other hand, there would most certainly be some evidence for such a relationship, that's what I think anyway.

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Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:43 pm
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Marija Vera wrote:
I think it is possible that Maria A. loved Axel Fersen and that they may have been lovers in a period when she was very lonely and unhappy in her marrige. But it is true that she loved her husband and respected him that showed the best during revolution and her being devoted to him and refusing to live him. Count Fersen helped them to arrange escape, during which they had caught, and even went with them during first days of travel. He said - I live to serve her. Maybe they were just close friends but it is possible that, in some period of her life, they were more than that.


It was in the period that Marie-Antoinette was becoming happy in her marriage that both spouses became friends with the Count. Marie-Antoinette was pregnant at the time (1778) and had never been happier. In the days before her marriage was fully consummated, when she was 'unhappy,' Fersen was not even around. She continued to have babies with her husband for the next ten years, and then when she was unhappy it was because of the deaths of her children, not because of Louis, who mingled his tears with her.

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Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:05 pm
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
I agree with both Hans Axel and Therese, who made excellent points, in my opinion. About novelists and historians fantasies, let's just quote Evelyne Lever (from her biographhy about Louis XVI) : Marie Antoinette fell in love with count Fersen, she wrote, with his lips that were so much like in her dreams...

Were on earth did Madame Lever take this so specific information from ? :lol: Except from her own fantasies... :roll:

So, dear Hans Axel and Therese, how right you both are ! Let's rely on writings and facts, not on burned letters and hopes !

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Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:53 pm
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Hans Axel wrote:
I think, Marija Vera, that what Fersen said about Antoinette tells us more about what his feelings for her were and not much about her relation to him. Fersen really loved and adored Antoinette, but that doesn't mean that he loved her in a romantical way and it certainly does not mean that Antoinette loved Fersen. There are no true evidence that they were involved as lovers. If they would have been lovers, on the other hand, there would most certainly be some evidence for such a relationship, that's what I think anyway.


I agree with you. We cant be sure about her feelings and certainly cant find
some evidence that confirm that relationship.

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Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:28 pm
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
I have no opinion about Fersen and Marie-Antoinette : I used to be convinced that they had a relationship but I have now to admit that there's a lack of evidence.
I think that this story appears so convincing because of Marie-Antoinette's tragic fate and the circumstances of Fersen's death. What is more, there might be a kind of influence of Marie Stuart's life story on Marie-Antoinette's. It's interesting to notice that Zweig also wrote a biography of Marie Stuart, so there's no wonder he kind of confused the two queens, whose fate were pretty similar whereas the two queens' personalities were totally different (Marie Stuart was certainly a more passionate nature). Thus, the sensual and passionate relationship with Fersen has to do with Marie-Antoinette's legend : the story seems so perfectly tragic that it is hardly credible, especially as regards to Marie-Antoinette's personnality. I don't know if I'm clear ... at least I understand myself :roll:

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Fri May 09, 2008 1:42 pm
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
I think you are right, Ludy, that the story of Mary Stuart, and even the life of Catherine the Great, have influenced the popular view of Marie-Antoinette. And even in the case of Mary and Bothwell, there is a great deal of controversy. Antonia Fraser does not think Mary ever loved Bothwell and that he forced himself upon her, which is interesting since Lady Fraser is usually so romantic about such things.

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Fri May 09, 2008 1:52 pm
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
I will just add that, in my opinion, Axel was very attractive man and that his charm is not for underestimating. We can’t know did that also worked for Marie Antoinette. :)


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Fri May 09, 2008 2:15 pm
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Well... I must admit I'd rather Louis' sensual lips than Fersen's cold and quite ironistic expression.

Image

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Fri May 09, 2008 4:43 pm
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Surely it depends how you look on it :D . Personally I prefer more that cold, reserved, proud look. Although Louis XVI was quite attractive as a young dauphin I definitely wouldn’t consider him better looking than Axel von Fersen. Our opinions only show how everybody has a different perception about beauty. For example, for me Julie Cesar was always attractive – not only because his features but great abilities as a leader – many people would disagree with me. I like when person has a strong attitude, when is decisive and confident. Even I find personality more important I must admit that I never felt attraction to plump or obese men. I think that Axel von Fersen had had many good characteristic that I personally like.

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Fri May 09, 2008 5:57 pm
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Yes, you are right about his charm: at the beginnig I only saw a portrait, which was quite ugly in my opinion, and I thought he was not so handsome, but, after seeing more, I definitely changed my mind!

I thought he was handsome and charming. I don't think I would like to have him as a man, though. He had a lot of lovers and was so concerned about his own charme and looks... This doesn't mean that, if I had met him, I couldn't have lost my head for him. In some cases you meet someone who has a great personal charme and you fall for him anyway, even if he is not exactly the right person for you (this happened to me at least).
I think that it would be understandable if MA felt something for him (and of course viceversa); but I don't have a definite idea about the question if they were actually lovers, because I feel I still know too little about the whole matter. I hope one day I'll be able to know more and judge.

Anyway, I think he was a true friend of MA, and he really cared for her and her family; he was the only one who did all he could do until the end to save them, even when all the others diplomats and monarchs washed their hands of them.

About Louis XVI, I think he was a very good man, and I love him as a person, but I would't like him either as my husband. I don't find him attractive, even if I agree that when he was young he was not ugly as people usually think.

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Fri May 09, 2008 8:59 pm
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
I don’t like portrait you have mentioned neither. However he looks like he has that “something” that made women go crazy. Louis XVI looks like a person I could love for goodness of his heart, as a friend and feel need to protect him not with strong, passionate love that Fersen could had awoken in women (and the novel is born… :D )

I won’t discuss about Marie A. and him without new historical facts but I want to ask something. In one documentary I’ve heard that Marie Antoinette had met him (Fersen) on a ball with masks and made a statement how he is very attractive, handsome or something – basically she was captivated by his appearance. Was that true?

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Fri May 09, 2008 10:34 pm
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
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Anyway, I think he was a true friend of MA, and he really cared for her and her family; he was the only one who did all he could do until the end to save them, even when all the others diplomats and monarchs washed their hands of them.

Actually, there were many of them trying to rescue our queen, Quintin Craufurd, Eleonore Sullivan, Marie Caroline, Emma Hamilton, Monsieur and Madame de Jarjayes, Madame Atkins, princess de Hesse Darmstadt, Rougeville, de Batz... and also some American people hoping that Marie Antoinette and her family would be rescued in their country.

I wonder why, people only remember Fersen... :shock:

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Sat May 10, 2008 1:45 pm
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Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
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In one documentary I’ve heard that Marie Antoinette had met him (Fersen) on a ball with masks and made a statement how he is very attractive, handsome or something – basically she was captivated by his appearance. Was that true?

No, it isn't. Fersen was presented to the dauphine at court first. But it is true that she played with him at a masked bal, finding amusing that he did not recognize her, as she often did in such occasions with many people.

Both facts are mentioned in Fersen's diary.

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Sat May 10, 2008 1:49 pm
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