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 What was this 'petit' operation'? 
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I completely agree Pim :wink:

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Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:21 am
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Post Re:
Moose wrote:
In the book that I am reading, which admittedly is written by someone who usually writes romantic historical fiction, it quotes correspondence between Marie Antoinette and her mother and brother on the subject .. is this not legitimate?


As much as i love Victoria Holt, she is wrong on this point. :wink:


Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:41 pm
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Post Re: What WAS this 'petit operation'?
It is true Marie Antoinette mentions the possibility of an operation... but the possibility only. Having read these letters, Stephan Zweig concluded that this actually happened. Though, it did not, for the letter Joseph wrote to his brother is extremely clear on that point. Stephan Zweig did not have this letter.

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Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:48 pm
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Post Re: What WAS this 'petit operation'?
yes, I perfectly agree. The letter written by Joseph seems to explain that, at the time he wrote, the problem was essentially a psychologic one.

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Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:51 pm
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Post Re: What WAS this 'petit operation'?
Indeed ! And both partners had psychological problems, not only Louis ! Stephan Zweig is so unfair to Louis ! :?

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Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:44 am
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Post Re: What WAS this 'petit operation'?
Yea Verily Pimpernelle. Call me a raving lunatic, but I think in order to engage in sexual intercourse both partners should be ready psychologically. :)

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Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:54 am
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Post Re: What WAS this 'petit operation'?
I have read that it was what is now called phimosis which is a painful condition preventing full erections. Also, he was to have received counsel from Emperor Joseph to go ahead with this operation for crucial dynastic reasons. Do we know that Louis went hunting at the time that an operation was performed and that he rode a horse rather than ride in a carriage which would have been more comfortable? The Emperor himself in a letter to his brother Leopold quite graphically describes a completely different type of conjugal problem which was probably due to ignorance and shyness on the part of the young couple. I'm currently reading a book which states clearly that Louis himself had relations with a servant girl and with MA's best friend in order to determine if he could father a child. According to this book he had a daughter and a son by these two women--the daughter eventually being raised with Madame Royale and the son carried Louis's middle name Auguste. This shocked me as I've never read of him showing any interest in another woman and this situation is explicitly stated in the book on Madame Royale. I have a prepublication copy which doesn't contain the index and I would like to obtain that to source this information. Anyone know about this?


Fri May 02, 2008 1:22 am
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Post Re: What WAS this 'petit operation'?
I know the book you are reading. There is a review of it here:

http://teaattrianon.blogspot.com/2008/0 ... error.html

I agree with the review in that I have NEVER heard of Louis XVI having relations with anyone but his wife-- no other biographer of the king makes such a claim.

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Fri May 02, 2008 1:30 am
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Post Re: What WAS this 'petit operation'?
I'm highly doubtful about that. It took seven years to consummate the marriage, let alone have any other sexual relations with any other woman/women.

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Fri May 02, 2008 1:37 am
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Post Re: What WAS this 'petit operation'?
There is no mistress known for Louis XVI. Some courtiers tried to put the actress Contat in his arms, but this did not succeed.

He once said to Marie Antoinette that he felt nothing for another woman.

So... ? :shock:

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Fri May 02, 2008 2:41 pm
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Post Re: What WAS this 'petit operation'?
That would eliminate the possibility of Louis XVI siring any illegitimate children

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Fri May 02, 2008 4:40 pm
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Post Re: What WAS this 'petit operation'?
Yes, and moreover Louis XVI seems to have had no propension towards sex. At the beginning it was like a duty for him, then he probably felt more relaxed with his wife, but he wasn't really interested in the act for itself...There seems to be a category of people who just don't feel that particular pulsion (without being impotent or suchlike: they can make it as anyone else, they are just not driven towards it), so maybe Louis belonged to it. I don't know...anyway, it's really improbable that he had a relationship with another woman. Moreover he was very devout and took his religion very seriously, and made it a point of priciple not to have a mistress.

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Fri May 02, 2008 8:31 pm
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Post Re: What WAS this 'petit operation'?
Yes, Fraser notes that,
Quote:
The situation is best summed up by an incident in which the Duc de Fronsac, heir to the dissipated Duc de Richelieu, dangled his own mistress, an opera singer known as 'la petite Zacharie', as bait in front of the King. 'Be gone, Fronsac,' said the King in disgust. 'It's obvious whose son you are...' In February 1782 the King himself made his position quite clear: 'Everyone would like me to take a mistress but I have no intention of doing so. I do not wish to repeat the scenes of the preceding reigns...'

Poor Marie Antoinette, the hatred of the maitresse en titre was directed upon her!

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Sat May 03, 2008 8:23 am
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Post Re: What WAS this 'petit operation'?
Délicate fleur wrote:
Yes, Fraser notes that,
Quote:
The situation is best summed up by an incident in which the Duc de Fronsac, heir to the dissipated Duc de Richelieu, dangled his own mistress, an opera singer known as 'la petite Zacharie', as bait in front of the King. 'Be gone, Fronsac,' said the King in disgust. 'It's obvious whose son you are...' In February 1782 the King himself made his position quite clear: 'Everyone would like me to take a mistress but I have no intention of doing so. I do not wish to repeat the scenes of the preceding reigns...'

Poor Marie Antoinette, the hatred of the maitresse en titre was directed upon her!


Thanks for the quote. People also need to realize that Louis XVI had a great deal deal of revulsion for his grandfather's lifestyle, which he felt had weakened France. His aunts had instilled him with such thoughts and he himself had high moral standards which he felt a strong duty to uphold as an example for the entire realm.

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Sat May 03, 2008 11:45 am
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Post Re: What WAS this 'petit operation'?
Yes precisely. Thank you for sharing that story Delicate Fleur! I did not know that.

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Sat May 03, 2008 1:37 pm
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