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 Marie Antoinette's lover 
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Post Marie Antoinette's lover
Was the love story of Marie Antoinette and Fersen true ? Or is it only in the Manga ?


Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:50 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette's lover
What lover, gusgus ? For sure Marie Antoinette never slept with any other man than her husband the king ! :lol:

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Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:51 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette's lover
This a quite debated topic :lol:
You can see the thread "Marie Antoinette and Hans Axel von Fersen?" in this same forum.
Good reading...

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Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:48 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette's lover
I agree, here one opinion is not relevant. Historians can’t say that for sure and neither we. You’ll hate me for this but I think that that was possible since having lover was common back then.

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Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:16 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette's lover
Hate you? Why? I also think so. We will never be able to know, but it is possible, and, if it was true, this would not make me change my opinion about Marie Antoinette!

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Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:45 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette's lover
I agree but I made an impression that sometimes people idealize M.A. and look at her as a saint. People or love her and look at her as a sinless or hate her completely. I don’t think that way. I like M.A., as you have said, from a human point of view and nothing could change my fascination by her.

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Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:45 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette's lover
This opinion Marie Antoinette once had Fersen for lover actually comes from a book written by Alma Söderjhelm. All the authors that believe there once was a love affair rely on this book and always quote the same old sources, without checking them. They should ! I read Ms Söderjhelm's book, and there is nothing relevant in it, nothing but speculations.

If you are interested in this matter, I recommend you scholars such as Stanley Loomis, Nesta Webster, Philippe Delorme, Paul and Pierrette Girault de Coursac. Their analysis is no idealization. It is historical critic.

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Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:11 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette's lover
Pimprenelle wrote:
This opinion Marie Antoinette once had Fersen for lover actually comes from a book written by Alma Söderjhelm. All the authors that believe there once was a love affair rely on this book and always quote the same old sources, without checking them. They should ! I read Ms Söderjhelm's book, and there is nothing relevant in it, nothing but speculations.

If you are interested in this matter, I recommend you scholars such as Stanley Loomis, Nesta Webster, Philippe Delorme, Paul and Pierrette Girault de Coursac. Their analysis is no idealization. It is historical critic.


Very true, Pimprenelle. Believing that Marie-Antoinette never had a lover other than her husband has nothing to do with romanticizing her or wanting to make her into a saint. It has to do with careful historical analysis. There are many women in history whom I admire a great deal, such as the Empress Josephine, who did have lovers. In Josephine's case there is a great deal of evidence of her liaisons. In Marie-Antoinette's case, little or no evidence exists.

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Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:52 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette's lover
Well, lack of evidences (none of them) that she had lovers makes the theory quite possible that she hadn’t had lovers at all. I admit that I didn’t read or heard anything reliable about this matter and maybe I am influenced by a modern view of Marie Antoinette.
Somehow being faithful doesn’t go with her personality, I mean with her youth. I know more about her from short period before the revolution and during the revolution than when she was younger. Prevalent opinion is that her youth was full of decadence, extravagation, wealth and parties but difficulties in her life made her deep and tragic character, showed her wisdom and dignity. Influenced by that opinion about her youth I made an impression that having a lover wouldn’t be something opposite to her character since she was a very passionate person. Also when I think about her relationship with Louis XVI, I first see real friendship and respect, later love. Having in mind all that, I came to a conclusion that it wasn’t unlikely that she had had more loves in life, that she had been crushed into somebody and was attracted to someone else but her husband. In that case I can’t see her restraining herself; she was young, beautiful, passionate and full of life.
Please correct me if I’m wrong, I want to be aware of true historical facts and analysis especially since I don’t know so much as you do. My intention is not to give some new speculative theories, based on nothing, but to learn as much as I can.

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Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:23 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette's lover
In my opinion, the point is that trying to apply modern psychological methods to Marie Antoinette is wrong. First of all, the periods are different. Women such as Marie Antoinette had a very strong christian education. Then, and this is even more important, I think, Marie Antoinette was an Habsburg archduchess, that is to say someone very different from the rest of the world. She had been raised to be queen somewhere sometimes, and to be queen of France, coming from the House of the Caesars. That means that she was a very special person, and she was deeply conscious of this.

Then, there is this wrong view we have about Marie Antoinette that her youth was decadent. This view actually relies on Mercy's reports, but, when we read them carefuly, we can see that Marie Antoinette did not make more "decadent" things than the other princesses at the court of Versailles. She indeed gambled. So what ? Everybody did so, at Versailles ! Even in Vienna, they did ! She spent money on clothes. So what ? Who did not ? Look at Madame de Lamballe, Madame d'Orleans...

She partied with friends... even the king sometimes came with her. And there we come to the real point : in fact, Marie Antoinette did nothing that her husband would not appreciate. All she did he was aware of, and he was in agreement. The opinion we now have about Marie Antoinette's liberties is quite exaggerated. Actually, she was not free at all, for a queen of France never is. First of all, she is never on her own, she is always accompanied by women of her suite. Then, she is spied all the time, and every single action is reported.

When could she meet a lover in such a situation ? :shock: She would have no time, no space, no freedom for this. And, as I told before, she had not this kind of education that would allow any man in her bed but her king she was raised for.

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Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:46 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette's lover
If Marie-Antoinette had had a lover, it would have been mentioned by both Count Mercy (the Austrian Ambassador) and by Count Aranda (the Spanish Ambassador). Those gentlemen paid a great deal of money to have servants check the bed clothes, to spy on Marie-Antoinette and Louis XVI and record every detail of their lives. They then sent detailed accounts to their sovereigns. There was no escape, since even at Petit Trianon the queen had servants with her. If Mercy was in a panic over the influence of Madame de Polignac, then he would have had a seizure if he thought their was anything inappropriate with the Queen's relationship with Fersen, he would have told the Empress or Joseph. But Fersen is not mentioned by Mercy at all. He was not a concern.

Pimprenelle is correct, the queen was raised with a strong sense of duty and strong religious upbringing. Her role as mother of the Children of France was sacred to her, and she knew that she could not compromise it by having a lover.

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Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:35 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette's lover
Thank you :) . What Count Mercy thought was the most problematic about her in his reports? I heard that she was often criticized by Empress, among the others because she wasn’t very fond of reading.

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Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:52 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette's lover
Marie Antoinette was critized by her mother according to the reports Mercy sent to Marie Therese ! :wink:

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Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:08 pm
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette's lover
Thank you, Pimprenelle and Therese, for your explanations!

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Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:31 am
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Post Re: Marie Antoinette's lover
You are welcome. And I think Mercy found Madame de Polignac problematical, because she threatened to curtail his own influence over the queen.

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Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:38 am
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